You can spend $3000 on an acoustic guitar and still get a dud. Sometimes the nicest woods don't make the nicest guitar (unless you buy with your eyes and not your ears). I would venture to say it's the same for any acoustic instrument made of wood.
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Double Bass Point of diminishing returns
- Thread starter Stuart.C
- Start date
You can spend $3000 on an acoustic guitar and still get a dud. Sometimes the nicest woods don't make the nicest guitar (unless you buy with your eyes and not your ears). I would venture to say it's the same for any acoustic instrument made of wood.
At risk of stirring some TB drama BS (just kidding, Chris, just kidding!), carved basses DO break in the more you play them. My teacher jokes that it takes a while for “a bass to realize it’s a bass”… bow the crap out of what you’ve got for 2 years and see if it doesn’t open up… but 100% see your professional luthier and have it set up ASAP. You know what’s up.
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Take both your Strunal Ply and your carved bass to a great luthier for setup optimization. Optimize the Strunal for pizzicato /(slap?) playing and the carved for Arco / pizzicato playing.
Really, diminishing returns in not a point, but a curve. It happens right away. More money needed to get fewer returns.
But if you need the performance, you spend the money.
IMO, if folks are performing with a pickup and amp, basses over 10k USD in year 2022 prices are nice, but not needed. Amplification will be the limit. (sweet range= $5k to $10k)
For acoustic only players with a bow, they need more. But the curve is still in place. Ever decreasing improvements cost ever increasing amounts of money to get.
Then there are the regular economics of supply / demand.
Add in the economics of heritage value, and folks with money simply wanting something, whatever the price.
Also, an upright bass/cello room in a shop, should be optimized to make instruments sound even more fantastic, so customers want to buy. Wood paneling, nodes in the desired place, reflections, reverb, all favourable to help sales. It won't sound that way at home!
Consider money spent and money coming in. An aspiring orchestra player seeking a union job in the $100k/year range, needs to bring more to blind auditions than does a performer in a club or concert hall being amplified or in a recording studio.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
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- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
I've always felt life is too short not to play the instrument you love every chance you get.
Last Saturday I took my $15K carved Juzek out on a $175 gig...
Gosh, I hope that's OK, (I'm not good with the Maths....)
IMFO, of course.
Thanks.
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+1 for the "get the bass you have adjusted as well as possible and play it as much as possible." I have known players who are always thinking that they need a better, different and/or more expensive instrument than they currently have. To me that approach is exactly backwards. You will never be happy with what you have because there must always be "the one" that makes you the player you want to be if you can only find it, and you will not realize your full potential as a player because you will always be distracted from making the best use of the bass you have. Price is not a guarantee of anything. In my experience, the players, amateur or professional, with more disposable income seem to be the ones more prone to this. JMO
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- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,947
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Well sure, but no matter how much you bow a Christopher it's NOT going to sound like a Panormo. Most well made basses will develop a richer, more nuanced version of the sound they started out with.
@Stuart.C - I highly recommend seeking out Jed Kriegel in Boston. In addition to my bass (more on that later), I've played a couple of other basses he's built and several that he's worked on and he has an ability to set up a bass so that you get the biggest, richest sound that bass has to offer. A couple of Juzeks and an old German bass that were just beautiful - big fundamental, warm bloom, clear voice, an open that just SLAPS off the back wall of the room. And super easy to get that sound from.
Anyway - I am neither doctor, lawyer, nor hedge fund manager, but when my wife passed I learned two hard lessons:
1. it's only money
2. don't put off things you really want to do
So I commissioned an instrument that is the best thing I've ever played. It's not a Vincenzo Panormo (and the price tag reflects that) , but I no longer jones for ANY other instrument that I hear. It will outlive me (and I've made certain provisions for that) and eventually (I feel) will enter that world of instruments that are continually repaired and refurbished so that a few hundred years from now, someone will be having the same joy in its touch and sound that I am currently experiencing.
But you're on a whole different level, my man. When/if I ever get chops like yours, I am sure I will have the discerning taste to justify whatever the heck I wanna do. I haven't met my forever bass yet, so I'm not there yet...
Ya'll need to keep in mind that I'm an idiot who talks too much. I didn't mean to imply that because my neurotic a** wouldn't want to take out a $25k axe to a dive bar that my perspective should be applied to any of you, especially the more experienced of ya'll. Nor do I consider myself in any way shape or form the 'gatekeeper' of what is or isn't OK. Sorry if I came off wrong.. I, hypocritically, am still very much on the lookout for my next bass, too, and I think I may have found it ($10k-15 range). I only speak from my own perspective and (limited) experience. Take everything I say on here as a grain of salt.
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Yeah. What's the point of owning it if you don't play it. A little ding here and there won't really hurt the value in the long run. Some makers actually "antique" their instruments. Not to say that one of the only times I can be counted on to be a proper ******* is when someone is careless around my bass.
Haha, I know many folks taking 35k instruments to $150 per service gigs. Gotta do what you gotta do!
Just as an update
I was lucky my local luthier was available today.
I turns out my sound post was shaped wrong and not making good contact.
The grain was twisted as well.
He reshaped it a bit.
After many tries of him trying to set it and it just falling over
We agreed to just make new one.
Will be interesting to hear the effects of a new proper post
I was lucky my local luthier was available today.
I turns out my sound post was shaped wrong and not making good contact.
The grain was twisted as well.
He reshaped it a bit.
After many tries of him trying to set it and it just falling over
We agreed to just make new one.
Will be interesting to hear the effects of a new proper post
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,947
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
YEA!!!
We're rooting for you, I hope this takes care of your concerns. Please do let us know...
I suspect you’ll be pleased. I’ve had the pleasure of playing a couple what should have been terrible Cremona and Palatino basses years ago setup by Nashville’s luthier wizard, Randy Hunt. They both absolutely smoked anything else we had in the shop at the time (all under $10k). A quality setup can go a long way…
I'm sure I'm playing a better bass than I deserve, but I don't have any regrets. I put a lot of time and effort in to my playing and I've been at it for over 30 years and I decided that it was worth it. I am careful where I bring my bass, but I have a cheaper one that I can bring along if the gig is at Bob's Country Bunker.
To go back to the original question - I do think there's a point of diminishing returns once you get into the realm where you could pay one of the top luthiers working today to make you a new bass. We live in a golden age of luthiery, and there are probably a dozen folks in the US alone who I think are making instruments worthy of the top players.
Maybe this is just my taste, but I'd take one of those newer instruments over almost any old bass I've ever played, regardless of price. I'm not saying some of those old basses aren't better, but I think there are a few things to think about with them:
1. The were built for different strings and different playing techniques than we use today. We can (respectfully) make some changes to adapt, but it's not likely we're going to go in and regraduate the top of a Maggini to better handle modern strings, or cut down the shoulders of a Panormo
2. They come with trouble - old repairs, cracks, etc, that take a lot of love and care to maintain
I feel like except for the very top professionals, the marginal benefit these basses offer aren't worth the trouble, and given an unlimited budget, I'd still probably end up with a bass not much different from the one I play today (or better still, a solo bass and an orchestra bass, both by modern makers for a fraction of the total cost of a grand old Italian bass).
To go back to the original question - I do think there's a point of diminishing returns once you get into the realm where you could pay one of the top luthiers working today to make you a new bass. We live in a golden age of luthiery, and there are probably a dozen folks in the US alone who I think are making instruments worthy of the top players.
Maybe this is just my taste, but I'd take one of those newer instruments over almost any old bass I've ever played, regardless of price. I'm not saying some of those old basses aren't better, but I think there are a few things to think about with them:
1. The were built for different strings and different playing techniques than we use today. We can (respectfully) make some changes to adapt, but it's not likely we're going to go in and regraduate the top of a Maggini to better handle modern strings, or cut down the shoulders of a Panormo
2. They come with trouble - old repairs, cracks, etc, that take a lot of love and care to maintain
I feel like except for the very top professionals, the marginal benefit these basses offer aren't worth the trouble, and given an unlimited budget, I'd still probably end up with a bass not much different from the one I play today (or better still, a solo bass and an orchestra bass, both by modern makers for a fraction of the total cost of a grand old Italian bass).
Just to intentionally hijack the thread, if you're really looking for a great bass check out maker John Koehler (has a bass at A440 in Chicago) and Jay Haide basses at Robertson and Sons. Koehler's bass at A440 is really fantastic for something in the $12-15k range. I had a flight case mishap and ended up renting it for a week a while back and enjoyed playing it. Jay Haide buys decent Chinese factory instruments in the white and totally reworks them. Amazing basses for $10k.
Just go play stuff.
Just go play stuff.
I very much agree with you. I've seen some modern instruments that absolutely blew my mind with the quality of sound they have. I think a lot of the older basses are very overpriced, and are mainly selling due to the pedigree (old Italian, for example) and the history they have (like what ensembles they've played in). I could be wrong, and I invite all to share their experiences since I'm just one person, but I've played a lot of older basses that really left something to be desired.
Agreed.
I am just pointing out how most of the great bassists I know have gotten their basses. There are lots of mythical stories out there about buying a bass that needs a ton of work of but a sound post crack or bad neck repair is pretty easy to spot. A bass that feels solid more often than not is a solid bass.
