Double Bass Point of diminishing returns

[Stuart.C]

Okay
Yes a properly fit post makes a big difference.
Probably more so than position alone ?

He said the original was not only shaped wrong but also way too short.
Replaced it with a top quality post.

I am very glad I went, I think the old one was 1 car bump a way from popping out under tension. The peace of mind knowing it done right is nice.

I felt like I had new bass ... in the shop.

When I got home my OCD kicked in when I noticed the strings were not centered on the finger board
And the whole tailpiece was shifted over to one side
When I tried centering it all, the move threw off the precious string balance
So I have put it back off center.
I will call when he is in on Saturday to ask if this was intentional.
For now I'll just play

 

[Carl Hillman]

Life is short, (though it can feel long, at times.)

As are some gigs.

I've played some 4 hour gigs that only seemed like 4 minutes. ...underwater.

 

[james condino]

Using guitars as an example, I know if I spend ~$3000 I will get a great steel string acoustic guitar with no real limitations /compromises, great highs and lows and full sound. (not to say there are not great $1k, $2K guitars but its more of gem finding thing) After ~$3k you are really paying for intangible qualities/ mojo and the returns start to diminish. Classical guitars the value is closer to $5K

^^^^^This is the same kind of logic that people who don't play the bass tell unsuspecting new players trying to sell them bass shaped objects. From where I sit after playing, studying, and building guitars for a half century, $3k is the minimum entry point to start getting into a decent guitar. Most bar band weekend warriors that I know are closer to $5k for their main instrument; pros and the vintage nerds are closer to $20k and up. That's just for one instrument, not mentioning all of the amplification and pedals, et cetera.

Retail prices on everything are mainly a direct reflection of impatience and the need for immediate gratification. You don't go shopping at the Ferrari dealership with a Toyota budget and get mad, so why do the same thing for a bass?

With the right amount of patience, the bass of a lifetime will find you for far far less money than you imagine.

 

[rickwolff]

^^^^^............

With the right amount of patience, the bass of a lifetime will find you for far far less money than you imagine.

Patience plus a good deal of luck and the ability to pounce when that rare opportunity presents itself.

That pretty much sums up what came together for me recently. And, yes, I do believe I just found my bass of a lifetime.

 

[damonsmith]

Make sure to ask questions about it on your next visit. These things have their precision but sometimes getting things right doesn't look as right as we'd like! Luthiers can do a lot, with a set up and if there is a reason to get the top off ever, they can really work some magic in there. My luthier did a restoration of Romanian flatback last year and really turned it into a very fine instrument once it settled.

Okay
Yes a properly fit post makes a big difference.
Probably more so than position alone ?

He said the original was not only shaped wrong but also way too short.
Replaced it with a top quality post.

I am very glad I went, I think the old one was 1 car bump a way from popping out under tension. The peace of mind knowing it done right is nice.

I felt like I had new bass ... in the shop.

When I got home my OCD kicked in when I noticed the strings were not centered on the finger board
And the whole tailpiece was shifted over to one side
When I tried centering it all, the move threw off the precious string balance
So I have put it back off center.
I will call when he is in on Saturday to ask if this was intentional.
For now I'll just play

 

[notabene]

I'd like to share a sad story that has haunted me for years.
I have a good friend of many decades who is a known rock guitarist. I heard him play in his home, the best sounding (and looking) acoustic steel string guitar I had ever heard. I remarked about my memory of what a great instrument it was a year or so later, and he told me the maker (from Tiburon California), no longer made guitars, because he was aware that almost all of them ended up behind glass (metaphorically) in the living/trophy rooms of "proffesional" people (lawyers, doctors, ceo's et al) and were not touched, much less played. Sad.

 

[gerry grable]

In your case it is pretty simple: Start looking for a fully carved bass. I am one of those people who have never bought the "sound is in your hands" rhetoric. Our sound a cooperation with our bass. Our bass going to lead us to certain things that become a signature of our sound.
What I do believe in is there is a different between gear that will perform certain tasks and gear that will not.
There is a lot of sound and tonality that just isn't a plywood bass. You don't need to jump from a Strunal ply to 20k + bass - this is the ridiculous notion that people often point jump to these debates.
If you are one of the many of us with ears that hear beyond a ply, then just get a decent carved bass and get to work. You should be able to find something in the 3-4k range that will get you started on the path. You may not even have to upgrade beyond a good set up. Make sure you also have a carbon fiber bow on hand as well. Also, just bring your bass to whatever gig you have, unless there is weather - hang on the Strunal for outdoor stuff.
Most of have cars worth more that what we thought a basic car would ever be and we drive there wherever we need to go. A bass is just a tool like a car.

You beat me to the punch regarding the taking of an expensive instruments to a low-paying gig. We don't seem to hesitate taking a $30K plus car to a cheap gig. That is unless you have an old Henry J parked in your barn?
My instruments and amplifiers have always been expensive. I just take care of them. I've never in 60 years had a problem on a gig, and I used to let people in sessions play my basses.

 

[damonsmith]

You beat me to the punch regarding the taking of an expensive instruments to a low-paying gig. We don't seem to hesitate taking a $30K plus car to a cheap gig. That is unless you have an old Henry J parked in your barn?
My instruments and amplifiers have always been expensive. I just take care of them. I've never in 60 years had a problem on a gig, and I used to let people in sessions play my basses.

Yeah, @Ed Fuqua has a great point as well. I think one thing Ed & I might have in common is we don't seem to play shows we take lightly. It doesn't matter what the venue is or how many people are there every time I play I try to make it count.
I take out my travel bass just to mix it up and stay used to it, but I take my old bass to private sessions as well as simple gigs.

 

[JBarz]

I think one thing Ed & I might have in common is we don't seem to play shows we take lightly.

Yeah, but that’s just the thing - ya’ll are both “next level” players that can afford that luxury. And who have more importantly earned it.

I (and I suspect the OP might be, too) am still very much in the “take every gig I can get, no matter how [insert bummer factor here] to try to make ends meet” phase of my “bass career.”

I backed my truck into my wrought iron fence the other day on my way to a $120 gig - it cost $350 to repair. You better believe I was frustrated for the next 3 shows because I felt like I was essentially playing for free to break-even… I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I played a crappy show with a $25k bass (like Paul Warburtons’ old 5 stringer I’ve been considering selling a car and a kidney for /s) and the headstock broke off due to rough crowd BS like happened to my American Standard “bar beater” bass last year… (luckily it was a clean break and James C talked me through it and it was salvageable).

I practice to deepen my relationship with The Music and Reality, but I play gigs to [try to] make money. Period. Different tools for different jobs, IMHO.

I don’t know — different strokes for different folks and all, but me and the OP are both trying to talk ourselves OUT of spending that crazy bread (and “go practice instead”). Maybe when I’ve really earned it with a level of facility and mastery a $25k bass deserves… (I think Chris F should absolutely have bought that $40k bass he passed up, assuming he could afford it, for example.)

But hey - if you’ve been blessed in the stonks market, or your distant rich uncle just died and left you his lot, or you’ve otherwise got money to burn — shoot — do it. I sure as heck would (will, fingers crossed) -- in a heartbeat.

No wrong answers.

 

[AGCurry]

I backed my truck into my wrought iron fence the other day on my way to a $120 gig - it cost $350 to repair. You better believe I was frustrated for the next 3 shows because I felt like I was essentially playing for free to break-even… I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I played a crappy show with a $25k bass (like Paul Warburtons’ old 5 stringer I’ve been considering selling a car and a kidney for /s) and the headstock broke off due to rough crowd BS like happened to my American Standard “bar beater” bass…

Sorry about your fence, but connecting gig earnings to a damaged fence is magical thinking. You could just as likely have backed into the fence on the way to the grocery store. Would you then associate going to the store with a $350 loss?

Moreover, the cost of fixing a broken headstock on a $25k bass wouldn't be much different from the same repair on an American Standard. The bass itself is a capital expenditure ("sunk cost"), and repairs are expenses which are the cost of doing business.

And why do you play to crowds rough enough to endanger your instruments? I can see doing it once, but not a second time.

I do use my "cheapest" bass for pizz-centric gigs ... not because I'm leery of damage but because it's set up for pizz. In that context, it outperforms my $10k orchestral bass.

I practice to deepen my relationship with The Music and Reality, but I play gigs to [try to] make money. Period.

So ... other than money, you have no interest in performance? I can sympathize with the sentiment, but if you can actually make money performing, you're rare!

 

[Bruce Calin]

+1 for using your good gear as much as possible. I have a nice old Kay that I almost never use. I'm comfortable taking my "good bass" pretty much always, no matter what the gig might be. I know I'm going to be careful and protective. One gig years ago when I didn't take it was for the groundbreaking for a building in downtown Mpls. when it was way below zero and we were outdoors-big jackets and fingerless gloves,etc. That was one of the few times, however. I'm fortunate to have a solid weather proof instrument, which helps. It's not a particularly expensive bass in today's market, but it has definitely stood the test of time. I have a nice EUB which I got for a flying tour that ended up being canceled that I have never used on a gig.

 

[JBarz]

I hear you. Full disclosure, I am pretty neurotic and tend to give myself a hard time about stuff -especially my playing. This makes most gigs not necessarily fun (unless there’s ‘the magic’ there, but I don't usually get called for those gigs). It’s something I’m working through.

About the fence - my bass in the back bed blocked my line of sight to the gate (hence my causality stinkin’ thinkin’)

 

[damonsmith]

Moreover, the cost of fixing a broken headstock on a $25k bass wouldn't be much different from the same repair on an American Standard. The bass itself is a capital expenditure ("sunk cost"), and repairs are expenses which are the cost of doing business.

I've often said this to my student how has an old ply he is rough on!

So ... other than money, you have no interest in performance? I can sympathize with the sentiment, but if you can actually make money performing, you're rare!

Could be a reflection of what shows are available there, but I am just guessing. Seems like lots of work in Memphis less "artistic" work, though! Even less than St. Louis. Though, I have recently gotten access to some great spots like O'Connells upstairs and Judson House where you have likely played or been to before.

 

[JBarz]

Seems like lots of work in Memphis less "artistic" work, though!

100% this. We have plenty of out of work upper level players that deserve to have the [very few] fun gigs more than me. It’s not ideal.

 

[AGCurry]

Could be a reflection of what shows are available there, but I am just guess. Seems like lots of work in Memphis less "artistic" work, though! Even less than St. Louis. Though, I have recently gotten access to some great spots like O'Connells upstairs and Judson House where you have likely played or been to before.

Damon, I don't swim in your pool. I'm not qualified. The lifeguard and/or other swimmers would throw me out. Come to think of it, though, you probably wouldn't be happy swimming in my pool either.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Yeah, but that’s just the thing - ya’ll are both “next level” players that can afford that luxury. And who have more importantly earned it.

I (and I suspect the OP might be, too) am still very much in the “take every gig I can get, no matter how [insert bummer factor here] to try to make ends meet” phase of my “bass career.”

I backed my truck into my wrought iron fence the other day on my way to a $120 gig - it cost $350 to repair. You better believe I was frustrated for the next 3 shows because I felt like I was essentially playing for free to break-even… I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I played a crappy show with a $25k bass (like Paul Warburtons’ old 5 stringer I’ve been considering selling a car and a kidney for /s) and the headstock broke off due to rough crowd BS like happened to my American Standard “bar beater” bass last year… (luckily it was a clean break and James C talked me through it and it was salvageable).

I practice to deepen my relationship with The Music and Reality, but I play gigs to [try to] make money. Period. Different tools for different jobs, IMHO.

I don’t know — different strokes for different folks and all, but me and the OP are both trying to talk ourselves OUT of spending that crazy bread (and “go practice instead”). Maybe when I’ve really earned it with a level of facility and mastery a $25k bass deserves… (I think Chris F should absolutely have bought that $40k bass he passed up, assuming he could afford it, for example.)

But hey - if you’ve been blessed in the stonks market, or your distant rich uncle just died and left you his lot, or you’ve otherwise got money to burn — shoot — do it. I sure as heck would (will, fingers crossed) -- in a heartbeat.

No wrong answers.

Some of the scariest times for me were the few times for whatever reason I had to transport my bass in the bed of a truck.

 

[Eli Brockway]

I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I played a crappy show with a $25k bass (like Paul Warburtons’ old 5 stringer I’ve been considering selling a car and a kidney for /s) and the headstock broke off due to rough crowd BS like happened to my American Standard “bar beater” bass last year…

Got rowdy over the course of the gig, I'm assuming, rather than when you got there?

Even then, I can only imagine the self-control it would take to have something like that happen and not immediately see red.

 

[JBarz]

I was pissed, but at my own dang self for leaning the bass on the amp instead of bothering to bring a stand. It was a terribly laid out bar that has the ‘bandstand’ adjacent to a narrow area everyone has to pass through to use the rest room. There’s no room and the band leader was stupidly insistent on how we set up, so I was right on the isle instead of the corner where I could/should have been. Lessons learned, but I like that bass even more because of it - like my car that’s all dented and scratched to hell. Zero anxiety about damaging it now!

 

[damonsmith]

I hear you. Full disclosure, I am pretty neurotic and tend to give myself a hard time about stuff -especially my playing. This makes most gigs not necessarily fun (unless there’s ‘the magic’ there, but I don't usually get called for those gigs). It’s something I’m working through.

I "dumb lucked" into some heavy shows(John Cage's last composition for Merce Cunningham, Marshall Allen from Sun Ra's band, A quartet with both John Tchicai & Wadada Leo Smith and many more) early on and it was always terrifying and I did not enjoy it. Finally, with Cecil Taylor, it hit me that he had heard it all and wasn't going to be impressed and that the pleasure would be all mine. I set up shop by his left hand and let it all go. It was great and it turned out he was impressed.

Part of an important distinction you hear me harp on is knowing the difference to between playing and practicing. I warm up on tour and before concerts. I do not practice. The criticality required for practice is detrimental to concerts.
You have to learn to push yourself but enjoy what you have already worked for. Your bass playing is not your looks or something you are born with and we shouldn't have shrinking violet feeling about it. I look at it in a way like an artist looks at exhibitions. We don't want to be adding finishing strokes when the art is on the wall. We need to have a "pencils down" / "the art is leaving the studio" attitude toward performance. These mental shifts are a huge part of learning to enjoy the work.

 

[damonsmith]

Damon, I don't swim in your pool. I'm not qualified. The lifeguard and/or other swimmers would throw me out. Come to think of it, though, you probably wouldn't be happy swimming in my pool either.

O'Connells has a lot of Bluegrass and more normal stuff happening! Judson House is more straight ahead jazz but they have started letting me in!