Double Bass Point of diminishing returns

[Stuart.C]

Recently I had the pleasure to play $25k bass.
But part of me kinda wishes I never tried it.
Because it was perfect in every way.
Big full notes jumped off every string every where up the finger board.
It made me realize how lacking my budget 'solid' instrument truly is.

It got me thinking what is the general price point where a bass ticks all the boxes

Big resonate sound that is effortless to pull
Perfect balance across stings, and up the neck

I don't have a lot of basses to try in my area to compare, the closest is $7k that is close but a bit lacking in the lower stings. Perhaps a set up thing

So between $7k and $25k (without just getting lucky) what does one expect to pay for a forever bass, beyond which your paying for 'je ne sais quoi'

This is really just to convince myself I can't afford an upgrade and should just go practice

 

[damonsmith]

You can find an older European shop bass, especially eastern Europe, that does it for less, as low as 3k if you are patient. If you want it all right now, you are likely looking at 10+.
Prices in basses are really dependent on whether someone is looking for something specific or someone is trying to sell something specific and how much patience buyer & seller have to get their ideal price!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

It depends on what you do. If you are an orchestral player, the price will be higher. For pizz, I will likely retire having played a $7k bass for most of my career with no complaints. The two basses that made me think about upgrading were $38k and $30k, so I passed.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

It’s only money.
You pay, then play for a life time, then sell for more than you paid.

Happens with homes, collector cars and basses.

 

[Don Hergert]

It made me realize how lacking my budget 'solid' instrument truly is.

The other thing to consider is that as the price tag goes up, the likelihood of having a nearly perfect setup also increases.

When was the last time your "budget 'solid' instrument" had a near perfect setup?

 

[Leif Dering]

There's a lot of very good modern instruments in the 25-40k range (although some of the top makers are charging up to 60k for new basses). There's lots of players in major orchestras playing on them now, probably partly because the market of older instruments has soared to astounding prices.

As to answer your question, it's a bit hard to tell you. Doublebasses generally just sell for what someone will pay for them, from what I've seen (unless you're commissioning one). There's some real hidden gems around the 10-20k range that sound fantastic and play very well, and there's some 50-70k basses that have the potential to be great instruments, but have their own inherent problems that could cost a ton to fix. Once you hit a certain price point, the pedigree and the condition are most of the price, rather than the playability/sound.

You just gotta try a bunch. You'd be surprised at how many great basses there are in the lower price ranges. If you keep an open mind, I'm sure you can find an awesome instrument.

 

[Sam Sherry]

It's not just, 'How much does perfection cost?' but also, 'How long does perfection last?'

I've had a couple of tremendous-sounding basses for less money because they needed a costly restoration.
Each time I have seen a bass through a ground-up rebuild it's needed some follow-up a few years later, at notable expense.

Or you can pay more for the bass that needs nothing. All the work is done and settled-in, or it never needed to be done.
Either way, you pay.
Seems like I prefer to pay in installments over the course of a few years.

 

[Stuart.C]

The other thing to consider is that as the price tag goes up, the likelihood of having a nearly perfect setup also increases.

When was the last time your "budget 'solid' instrument" had a near perfect setup?

I am considering this, getting a new bridge and sound post fitted is something I could afford.

But I have experimented a lot with the sound post position, and strings, and there seems to be a certain inherent limitation to the bass that cannot be changed.
The string balance will not be prefect without some compromise, and the timbre really changes as you play up the neck, and this is not accounting for the actual sound quality and ease of pulling sound.

But getting it the best it can be for now is the sensible choice.

There's some real hidden gems around the 10-20k range that sound fantastic and play very well

This is kind of surprising to me that $10-$20 is still in hidden gem territory. I realize how difficult it must be build a quality bass with all the variables compounding over such a large space, it's kind of a miracle if it all comes together.

It’s only money.
You pay, then play for a life time, then sell for more than you paid.

Happens with homes, collector cars and basses.

So yeah from here on out I'll put out my feelers and make a point to go try as many basses as I can, and hopefully I find one that has that rare balancing acting of string tension and wood where the instrument just wants to sing, and I'll lay my money down.

kinda cruel though that the bass built for students are the least inspiring and hardest to play.

 

[JBarz]

I’ve been thinking about this phenomenon a lot in recent months as I have also been tempted by a +$25k bass. I have to remind myself that I am still an amateur bass player, and even when I really get my arco stuff together - I wouldn’t want to take a $25k axe out to a $100 gig. I don’t even like taking my $7k bass out, really, even though it’s a hybrid. It’s easy to get hung up on gear. I owned and operated a retail brick and mortar music store for a decade and saw that the people who could really play didn’t tend to go gear shopping very often, if you catch my meaning. Make music with what you’ve got - please the ethereal spirits - wait for Nature/God/The Universe to drop your ideal instrument into your lap. Leave the eternal gear search for the doctors, lawyers, and politicians who can afford to try to buy their way into “sounding good”. At the end of the day, the most valuable commodity is (aside from your health) having the time to be able to practice and make music. No ‘magic power-axe’ is going to give you more of that, but saving and/or spending your money wisely might…It’s just a tool. I like fancy saws and drills, too, but I can build equally quality stuff with the cheap Harbor Freight tools.

 

[Don Hergert]

kinda cruel though that the bass built for students are the least inspiring and hardest to play.

Yup, it's like I tell people about retirement, now that I'm retired and can speak with a little experience about it...

We've got it all backwards -- people need to be able to retire and have fun for 15 to 20 years when we are young and have young families. Then after the kids are out of the house, we should go to work and work until we drop.

(Actually I have some professor friends at the local university who seem to have done just that. Go to school until age 35, then teach and do research until life is over. )

I am considering this, getting a new bridge and sound post fitted is something I could afford.

But I have experimented a lot with the sound post position, and strings, and there seems to be a certain inherent limitation to the bass that cannot be changed.
The string balance will not be prefect without some compromise, and the timbre really changes as you play up the neck, and this is not accounting for the actual sound quality and ease of pulling sound.

But getting it the best it can be for now is the sensible choice.

Sound post setup is more than position though, it also is seating, and it could also be length and in some cases material. Similarly, bridge and strings are also nut adjustment and string spacing, fingerboard relief and shaping, tailpiece and saddle tuning and tail gut adjustment. And like with these, there could be a number of other fine details involved that only a very experienced luthier or setup person would understand. There's a lot that can be involved with a very high level professional setup.

Oh, and don't forget that just the right kind of hair on the bow can make a pretty amazing difference...

True, a person probably wouldn't want to spend $1K for overhaul and setup of a double bass that is only worth $500. But I think some discussion with the luthier or setup person would answer that kind of question.

 

[Stuart.C]

people who could really play didn’t tend to go gear shopping very often, if you catch my meaning. Make music with what you’ve got - please the ethereal spirits

Yes I like this thought as well, and really is the important truth, but it's not the whole truth. there is something to be said about feeling inspired by the quality of the instrument, and as you grow as a player you'll need more sonic space (so to speak) to grow in.
But important to control vain desires.

For pizz, I will likely retire having played a $7k bass for most of my career with no complaints

This is a good point.
My strunal ply is more than enough for all my pizz needs, fills the room at jams, is easy to play and is virtually indestructible. but sounds horrible under the bow. When I get frustrated or fatigued with arco I play my ply for fun.

 

[BobDeRosa]

I’ve been thinking about this phenomenon a lot in recent months as I have also been tempted by a +$25k bass. I have to remind myself that I am still an amateur bass player, and even when I really get my arco stuff together - I wouldn’t want to take a $25k axe out to a $100 gig. I don’t even like taking my $7k bass out, really, even though it’s a hybrid. It’s easy to get hung up on gear. I owned and operated a retail brick and mortar music store for a decade and saw that the people who could really play didn’t tend to go gear shopping very often, if you catch my meaning. Make music with what you’ve got - please the ethereal spirits - wait for Nature/God/The Universe to drop your ideal instrument into your lap. Leave the eternal gear search for the doctors, lawyers, and politicians who can afford to try to buy their way into “sounding good”. At the end of the day, the most valuable commodity is (aside from your health) having the time to be able to practice and make music. No ‘magic power-axe’ is going to give you more of that, but saving and/or spending your money wisely might…It’s just a tool. I like fancy saws and drills, too, but I can build equally quality stuff with the cheap Harbor Freight tools.

Bravo, @zootsaxes! There's lots of wisdom in this message and you said it better than I ever could.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

I’ve been thinking about this phenomenon a lot in recent months as I have also been tempted by a +$25k bass. I have to remind myself that I am still an amateur bass player, and even when I really get my arco stuff together - I wouldn’t want to take a $25k axe out to a $100 gig. I don’t even like taking my $7k bass out, really, even though it’s a hybrid. It’s easy to get hung up on gear. I owned and operated a retail brick and mortar music store for a decade and saw that the people who could really play didn’t tend to go gear shopping very often, if you catch my meaning. Make music with what you’ve got - please the ethereal spirits - wait for Nature/God/The Universe to drop your ideal instrument into your lap. Leave the eternal gear search for the doctors, lawyers, and politicians who can afford to try to buy their way into “sounding good”. At the end of the day, the most valuable commodity is (aside from your health) having the time to be able to practice and make music. No ‘magic power-axe’ is going to give you more of that, but saving and/or spending your money wisely might…It’s just a tool. I like fancy saws and drills, too, but I can build equally quality stuff with the cheap Harbor Freight tools.

Hey Zoot - Totally disagree with the “doctors, lawyers” part - as I’d say these days Wall Street/investment bankers bury most doctors financially. Furthermore, I know many doctors who can play as well or better than many pro musicians. I do get what you’re saying though - most important thing is to play what one has to the best of one’s ability… The remainder of your post is right on!

 

[JBarz]

Oh man, I’m not hatin’ on doctors or lawyers for having bread - far from it. We have a lot of them here in Memphis and I respect the heck out of them! I’m just the idiot who thought it would be a good investment to study jazz sax in college… If I had a time machine, I guarantee you I’d be a [well employed/paid] scientist that plays for fun as opposed to a [under-employed/paid] player that sciences for fun, lol… Typically the well-employed don’t have as much time to practice as the rest of us “self employed” schmucks is all…

I forgot to mention the most important point of all:

Edger Meyer’s cheap broken/repaired $100 bow.

 

[damonsmith]

In your case it is pretty simple: Start looking for a fully carved bass. I am one of those people who have never bought the "sound is in your hands" rhetoric. Our sound a cooperation with our bass. Our bass going to lead us to certain things that become a signature of our sound.
What I do believe in is there is a different between gear that will perform certain tasks and gear that will not.
There is a lot of sound and tonality that just isn't a plywood bass. You don't need to jump from a Strunal ply to 20k + bass - this is the ridiculous notion that people often point jump to these debates.
If you are one of the many of us with ears that hear beyond a ply, then just get a decent carved bass and get to work. You should be able to find something in the 3-4k range that will get you started on the path. You may not even have to upgrade beyond a good set up. Make sure you also have a carbon fiber bow on hand as well. Also, just bring your bass to whatever gig you have, unless there is weather - hang on the Strunal for outdoor stuff.
Most of have cars worth more that what we thought a basic car would ever be and we drive there wherever we need to go. A bass is just a tool like a car.

 

[Ed S]

I mean no disrespect, but do you consider/envision yourself to be a $10k bassist or a $25k+ bassist? Are you a full-time member of a major orchestra? How much will your bass be expected to "travel"?

I'm not suggesting that some basses aren't clearly "better" than others for a particular player. But my other hobby is golf, where SO MANY players think they will be able to "buy themselves a game." And we've all heard the stories/seen instances where a great player made a cheap bass sound incredible.

Me - my ability is more accurately valued in pennies rather than dollars. But I would expect that 98% or so of pro bassists could be awfully satisfied w/ a $10-15k bass. If you are one of that ~2%, well, the sky's the limit. But I bet if you check the gear of most of your heroes, a lot of them won't have basses w/ stratospheric prices.

 

[Stuart.C]

I mean no disrespect, but do you consider/envision yourself to be a $10k bassist or a $25k+ bassist?

This is kind of value I am trying to ascertain.
Using guitars as an example, I know if I spend ~$3000 I will get a great steel string acoustic guitar with no real limitations /compromises, great highs and lows and full sound. (not to say there are not great $1k, $2K guitars but its more of gem finding thing) After ~$3k you are really paying for intangible qualities/ mojo and the returns start to diminish. Classical guitars the value is closer to $5K

For basses, I have an experience gap in from $7K - $25K so I don't know if $10K is where I am likely to find the one, or is it actually $25K where all the qualities really start to come together.
I need to just get out and try some more basses.

In your case it is pretty simple: Start looking for a fully carved bass

Yes this.

I do have an all solid wood bass, (I think they leave out 'fully carved' for a reason) and it is decent and serviceable under the bow, but lacks that effortless singing quality (on every note) I heard in the $25K bass.

But it seems that until a gem is divined to cross my path, I should make my bass the best it can be.

Sound post setup is more than position though

This clinches it for me to take the bass this week to get it looked at.

 

[JBarz]

But it seems that until a gem is divined to cross my path, I should make my bass the best it can be.

This is the way.

 

[damonsmith]

This is kind of value I am trying to ascertain.
Using guitars as an example, I know if I spend ~$3000 I will get a great steel string acoustic guitar with no real limitations /compromises, great highs and lows and full sound. (not to say there are not great $1k, $2K guitars but its more of gem finding thing) After ~$3k you are really paying for intangible qualities/ mojo and the returns start to diminish.

It doesn't work like that with basses. Watch a couple episodes of Pawn Stars. The price tag on something doesn't mean anything until it sells for that price. That one like it has sold for that price doesn't mean it fetch a high price again.
The bass market is far more fluid. If you walk into a dealer and list the qualities you want, then prices are going to be higher.
If you stalk Facebook Market Place, the classifieds here and Craigslist, you can really get a great deal with patience.
Free Jazz LPs started going for insane prices in the late '90s. Still, it became pretty clear that once Thurston Moore, Zorn, Mats Gustafson & Jim O'Rouke paid a grand for the LP you were after you could pick up one up for $80-100!
Cash in hand still speaks well in these situations. A bass can have any price on it IF the seller has the luxury to have it sit around until someone can afford that price. More often than not, people don't have that time.

 

[Ed S]

But it seems that until a gem is divined to cross my path, I should make my bass the best it can be.

Impresses me as the best approach.

And then keep your eyes and ears open (and your bank acct stocked. This is a significant factor for most of us, because you can't expect a rapid full price sale of anything you need to sell to finance a new purchase.)

My impression is that Damon considers himself pretty good at spotting diamonds in the rough. Which is how you can score bargains. Many of the rest of us have difficulty telling whether a "project" will turn out AMAZING or just pretty good. Lacking that ability, you are reduced to paying the premium charged by someone who has already put in the work.

I would imagine that as a prospective buyer at the $10k+ price point, you would have some "bargaining power" WRT sellers. If a bass were VERY GOOD as is, you should be able to ask the seller to tweak it to see if it would become EXCELLENT. Basses at this price point don't exactly fly off the shelves, and reasonable sellers would be willing to make some effort to satisfy a serious buyer.

My $6k hybrid exceeds any skill I will ever attain. But I'd just advise you to play every carved bass you can find over $10k, and when you find the one, jump on it. It is a marathon, not a sprint!