Pointless Alcohol laws......

[Davidoc]

Having a low drinking age doesn't discourage drinking in younger people, as far as I can tell. It's almsot an encouragement.

 

[RicPlaya]

Children at a very young age start out drinking watered down wine in Euorpe. They drink with thier families.

I dunno...a teen having a few drinks in Euorpe with family where he/she can be taught moderation and responsibility....or an American teen steels a case of Busch from someones garage and drinks unsupervised on a binge.

Don't get me wrong..this one dude from Germany I knew could drink Yager like it was Kooaid. Alcoholism is everywhere..but it seems like here in America "everything" bad like Alcohol, drugs, murder, crime, Etc is worse here than most other first world countries.

 

[mike_v_s]

I've read some bloody stupid things in this thread.

The main one being that alcohol-law and driving-age are some how related?

To further this point, you can buy a gun in the USA at 21 - to use the argument of Mike and Cheeze, surely the drinking age should be raised up to 23 so you've got 3 clear years of being "responsible" around guns before you drink yourself silly on vodka and murder your work mates?

The secondary one being "I'm 40, you're 20, therefore I'm right and you're wrong, ner-ner-ne-ner-ner"

If the USA alcohol laws are working - why do a vast proportion of your 18-21 year-olds go to Cancun every Spirng Break and flash their breasts on "the boobie show"? I don't see any European's in the same age group doing that.

I think you've misconstrued my intent. I don't feel like turning this into an "I'm right, your not" love fest, so I'll gladly reword and (hopefully) clear up my point in a PM, if you want. Let me know.

Other that that....I think the direction Keeaumoku is taking the thread is a very interesting one. When I lived in Texas, you could buy beer at a store until 2 AM on Fridays and 12 AM on Saturdays. Sales were prohibited until 12 PM on Sunday. You could drink until 2 AM in a bar or club on either night. Liquer is only found in dedicated liquer stores. These (and other odd consumer-related laws) were referred to as Blue Laws. Even after I turned 21, this speed bump often led me to take the 50 mile drive to Louisiana.

Mike

 

[The Golden Boy]

From what i have heard, yes...The main reason for changing the drinking age is because there was a high number of car accidents caused by drunk 18-20 year olds...of course if you ask me, in Northern Minnesota and Northern Wisconsin there are as many car accidents caused by 21 year old drinkers as there are 40 year old drinkers and i would go so far as to say that in 1970 there were just as many 18 year olds in the ditch as well.....

I was around 16 when the Wisconsin state drinking age changed from 18 to 19. I was pretty pissed. When you look at WI DOT statistics, you'll notice a dramatic decline in alcohol related accidents around 1984. It actually started decreasing a few years before the age was raised, however, notice how the rate keeps decreasing as the 21 age is more established. In other words, the fewer minors that have buddies that have been "grandfathered" into drinking age.

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I don't buy this relation to increased drunk driving accidents with lower alcohol ages. For one thing, it's extremly easy to get a hold of alcohol if you are underage. A bit of a hassel, but easy. In other words, the laws aren't working. If kids want to drink they will drink.

I will get bashed for this one of course, but what it comes down to is $money$. Raise the age to 21, and establish a source of revenue by giving fines to the 18-20 year olds (whom are more likly to drink on a regular basis then the 14-17 year olds).

Bad Brains, we've been through this at least twice before. Please forgive me if my posts come across as hot- but they were at the time, for some doofy reason. I'm not editing anything out to make anyone look silly or smart or anything.

Originally Posted by Bad Brains
I'm not sure if anyone is going to read this....but here goes.


Everything that has been said backs up my belief that the Government dosn't care about safety, they care about $$$$$$$$$$$.

There is NO reason why the drinking age should be 21. The United States has the highest drinking age in the world (I think), and the rest of the world laughs at us. My own family in Toronto dosn't even believe me that you have to be 21 to drink, they think that is a joke.

A drinking age of 21 just gives more reasons to give fines because they know people under the age of 21 are going to drink regardless, and they are trying to cash in on that. I live is a college town, so I have plenty of alcohol stories. How about the time my drunk friend walking home one night got a MIP for....just walking. The police wrote him his 300$ ticket, and was so concerned about his safety he didn't even give him a ride back.

You can provide all the drinking and driving/ drinking age stats you want. They don't mean anything. You really want to get rid of drinking and driving for OUR SAFETY, then you get caught drinking and driving then LIFE IN PRISON! I guarentee no one will drink and drive (except the idiots who should be locked up anyways).

But....that wouldn't be profitable. Give us more $$$$.

What?

I know SOMEWHERE in that incoherent rant of babble there must have been some shred of logic.

No. There isn't.

Tell me exactly how the indious government is making "$$$$" off denying themselves the taxes from the prodigious amounts of liquor, beer and wine that would be consumed by 18, 19, and 20 year olds.

I realize coherent thinking doesn't necessarily come with age- but for cryin' out loud- read that crap you wrote. Someone's supposed to trust your clear headedness on such matters on drinking and driving and you believe the drinking age/ alcohol related fatal accident stats "don't mean anything."

Try again in a few years, junior.

Think about this for all of 12 seconds.

The Federal Government has mandated that states comply with a 21 year drinking age.

The 21 year drinking age is a State law.

The Federal government does not get money from the state.

A MIP, DUI or any drinking charge is going to be a violation at a state level or lower.

Any money "made" at a municipal, county or state level is not going to the big, greedy fat cats in DC. It stays in the state, county, municipal level.

IF the state were to have a lower drinking age, the state would 'clean house' from the taxes on liquor, beer and wine. The taxes in one month alone would astronomically exceed all 18-20 year old MIP "revenue" for the past 10 years.

Then the big, evil government could make "$$$$" off the myriads of 18-20 year olds with DUI, public drunkenness, and and the taxes levied on closing out the estates of people dying in alcohol related fatal accidents.

Companies that manufacture liquor, beer and wine indirectly make a lot of "$$$$" from minors. Imagine how much more they would make if a 18-20 year old could legally purchase those products.

The way it sits, companies stand to make more money if 18-20 year olds are allowed to purchase alcoholic beverages. The state would stand to make more money from taxes on legally purchased alcohol from 18-20 year olds. State, county and local agencies would generate tons more revenue from alcohol related fines if 18-20 year olds were allowed to legally purchase alcohol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Brains
But...you are assuming MORE underage kids are going to drink if the ages were lowered. Which I don't find to be true.

Exactly how is this not true? If you don't find someone of age to buy alcohol for you- what do you do? I'll tell you- you don't drink alcohol. It's completely ludicrous to assume that no more alcohol would be consumed by 18-20 year olds if it were legal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Brains
It's just as easy to get alcohol when you are underage as it is to get alcohol when you are of age. Being underage is just grounds for inconviencence because you have to get someone to go and buy it for you.

An "inconvenience," by definition, means it's not "just as easy." It is not "just as easy" for you to buy alcohol as it is for me. I can go to the store and buy it. From the time the store opens to the time the store closes. What do you have to do?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Brains
And i'm pretty sure the court systems get plenty of revenue off of underagers (and those who sell or buy for underagers). They can also fine them more for being underage. I know it's not the main source, but it does have some significance.

This is hardly the point. The Federal government forced the states to comply with the law because it's more statistically probable that young drunk drivers will kill people. Across the board- it's true. Those statistics do mean something. The "revenue" is punishment for breaking the law, and as a deterrent to breaking the law. The state and local governments would make much more money on taxes of legal alcohol sales.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Brains
"Most" people can decide for themselves by this point in their lives whether or not they want to drink alcohol. For the most part, who ever wants to drink is going to drink, the 21 and over law has little influence on that.

Regardless of how "grown up" you think you are at 18/19/20, generally speaking, you really don't have a real concept of mortality.

I'm not saying there isn't some crazy double standard which allows you to vote, but not drink... But the facts clearly point out- fatal alcohol related accidents are more likely to happen when 18-20 year olds have access to alcohol.

The 21+ law has a lot of influence on young peoples' drinking habits- try buying alcohol without the aid of someone 21+.

You've presented nothing that would pass as a legitmate argument for lowering the drinking age. It's not about "$$$$$$$$$$$." It's all about fatal alcohol related accidents when young adults have access to alcohol. No more; no conspiracy against the youth of America, no evil government trying to spoil anyone's fun- just keeping people alive.

Originally Posted by Bad Brains
Well duh... For most people, by the time they are 21 their "harder" drinking days are over.

Therein lies the "duh."

 

[mike_v_s]

Children at a very young age start out drinking watered down wine in Euorpe. They drink with thier families.

I dunno...a teen having a few drinks in Euorpe with family where he/she can be taught moderation and responsibility....or an American teen steels a case of Busch from someones garage and drinks unsupervised on a binge.

I think it still boils down to cultural perception of the drink. If alcohol was made available to 16 year olds in the US tomorrow, how many of those kids would have grown up respecting the effects thanks to their parents/relatives, etc? Very few. We'd had kids spattered all over I-10 from Florida to California.

I think a good example is in rural or culturally isolated areas of the US. I currently live near New Orleans. Alcohol is just part of the city. Always has been. A multitude of parents buy their underage kids drinks. My wife grew up with wine at dinner. At Mardi Gras....nearly no one is carded as they stand on the street corner with a drink. I have pictures of myself at 18 standing next to a cop while shot-gunning a beer. Cultural acceptance.

I used to live in Beaumont, Texas. If I was seen with a beer in public the first cop car to drive by would hit the brakes and have a talk. It's just not done. The community is not used to the concept and might not ever be. This is where the problem will be. I'm not saying a 16 year old can't be responsible with alcohol, I'm saying a 16 year old with zero guidance on the subject will be the last person you want with a beer and free reign on the road. This probably still hasn't cleared up my position, so I'll end it.

Oh, and to add on to the Golden boy's last snippet....my "hard" drinking had just begun by the time I turned 21. I was a seasoned "pro" capable of tanking an amount that would make you call me a liar. It only got worse when I had immediate access.


Mike

 

[Bad Brains]

Bad Brains, we've been through this at least twice before. Please forgive me if my posts come across as hot- but they were at the time, for some doofy reason. I'm not editing anything out to make anyone look silly or smart or anything.

That argument was a while ago. Yikes.

I still think what I said is true though. I don't believe that the amount of people drinking would increase if the age was lowered. The laws really don't do what they intend.

A 17 or 18 year old who wants to drink will find a way to get it regardless if it's legal or not. Most underagers, if not all, who want to drink will.

I suppose there is no real way to tell for sure, the age will never be lowered, at least in my lifetime.

 

[superbassman2000]

I was around 16 when the Wisconsin state drinking age changed from 18 to 19. I was pretty pissed. When you look at WI DOT statistics, you'll notice a dramatic decline in alcohol related accidents around 1984. It actually started decreasing a few years before the age was raised, however, notice how the rate keeps decreasing as the 21 age is more established. In other words, the fewer minors that have buddies that have been "grandfathered" into drinking age.

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Well GB, i am not saying that 18 year olds weren't crashing cars and causing damage, but what i was trying to say was that no matter what age you are, you aren't magically "immune" to drunk driving. I have seen 18 year olds shred their face up from crashing into school on a alcohol-filled night, and i also have seen 40 year olds get messed up after a night of drinking at the bar and trying to drive home.
but yes, cutting off alcohol to an age group will decrease car crashes...heck if we moved the drinking age up to 99 years old, there would be an even smaller number of alcohol-related crashes. should we do that? I believe that the US tried something like that, and it really didn't work...as a matter of fact, i recall grown adults doing the same thing 18-20 year olds are doing now...sneaking off to a friend's house to drink, making their own alcohol, doing whatever it takes to have a drink. I don't think that changing age limits is what it takes to deter drunk driving or any alcohol-related incident. I think that parents need to show their children that drinking isn't some forbidden activity, something that only adults can enjoy, because then kids want to do it. Thats my opinion.
Now i'm not saying that changing the drinking age to 21 is necessarily a bad thing, because i don't trust that the majority of parents can take the time to show kids that...and anyways, who wants to drink with their kids?
I like how my mom and stepdad did it, about the time i turned 18 they would offer me a glass of wine with dinner or maybe a beer once in a while...its not a big deal to drink...its really not.

 

[mike_v_s]

I suppose there is no real way to tell for sure, the age will never be lowered, at least in my lifetime.

I think there is. I had pretty easy access to alcohol by 18...driving 50 miles one way to LA. I had even easier access to alcohol by 19 in the form of 21 year old friends. My consumption went from a weekend venture to daily when I turned 21. I have a hard time remembering 1996. The whole year. I turned 21 in March. The easier it is to get...the more likely you are to use it when you want.

Mike

 

[superbassman2000]

I think that Mikes post right above this one is one reason why I think that the drinking age won't stop kids from drinking...Its like turning on a hose and bending it so the stream stops and pressure builds up...as soon as you let go (turn 21) the stream comes out at full blast (you drink all the time because you finally get to drink!). Of course if they did change it back to 18, then we'd all probably have the same problem with 15 year olds!

 

[Bad Brains]

I live in a college town so my view might be a little biased, but even back home in Detroit I know people 17/18/19 who drink pretty much whenever they feel, be it every night.

A lot people I know drank less after they turned 21 because they were so burnt out from it. Plus the thrill is gone if you are doing it legally. Everyone reacts differently to booze.

But to give you some merit, i'm in one of those "drink every night" stages (i'm 23), and if I couldn't just go to the store and buy it whenever I please I probably wouldn't be drinking so much.

But other people my age don't drink every night, so it depends on the person.

 

[UnsungZeros]

The drinking age is an issue I think should be thrown back to the states. Even though the 21st amendment returned the ability to regulate alcohol solely back to the states, the federal government has strongarmed all 50 states into rasiing their drinking ages to 21. As mike_v_s and others have pointed out, alcohol acceptance varies from place to place, so we should take advantage of our federal system and let the states (or even individual communities) regulate alcohol. The federal government has more or less extorted the 21 drinking age out of the states.

The downfall of that idea is that undeage people that live near states lines in states with high drinking ages will cross into neighboring states to get drunk. Not that it doesn't currently happen with underage people crossing into Canada and Mexico to drink.

We also need to get extremely though with the penalties for drunk driving. If people see that driving drunk will get them some considerable time in jail, then I'm sure they will think twice about getting behind the wheel after drinking.

Also, I will note that I am 17, so my disagreement with 21 as the drinking age probably is skewed by my age. However, I'm open to the idea that my views may change with age, but I can't say for sure yet. Check back with me in 15 years.

 

[mike_v_s]

But other people my age don't drink every night, so it depends on the person.

Agreed. But we can't possibly know each individual when drafting legislation, or their up bringing, or possible reactions to theoretical situations....so laws were drafted without this knowledge. It happens everyday. Not every parent is going to teach their child the responsibility needed to handle alcohol at any age. Mine didn't. They rely on "well, you're legal, now...so it must be OK"...same with the driver's license. That was my point. Our society doesn't guide our youth into this gradually or responsibly. and the result is unfortunate. I think lowering the age will make it worse because we will be dealing with even less maturity.

Here's a tip: when your liver starts to hurt....take a break.

Mike

 

[The Golden Boy]

but yes, cutting off alcohol to an age group will decrease car crashes....

As I recall, around 16-20 year olds accounted for 6% of drivers in the state.

You can always attribute things to coincidence- however around the time of the drinking age being raised to present time, you're talking about around 1,000 fewer alcohol related driving fatalities than while 18 year olds were drinking.

If you're talking about cutting off alcohol to around 6% of drivers decreasing the accident or fatality rate by around 50% as the chart shows... it's not just any age group...

 

[The Golden Boy]

We also need to get extremely though with the penalties for drunk driving. If people see that driving drunk will get them some considerable time in jail, then I'm sure they will think twice about getting behind the wheel after drinking.

It hasn't made a difference historically. The idea of "the rest of your life" or "the end of your life" had little context to me when I was 18-21, and I'd seen death. Hell, until I was 25 I was frickin' immortal.

 

[Volk]

Quite frankly, teenagers are idiots (I'm 16 by the way....). They find thrill in things simply because they shouldn't be doing them. My parents have allowed me to drink whenever I wanted from a young age, and I've never felt compelled to drink myself silly or sneak drinks or anything. It's not just a matter of lowering the drinking age, it's a matter of American society, we aren't Europeans and parents would have to adapt.

 

[UnsungZeros]

It hasn't made a difference historically. The idea of "the rest of your life" or "the end of your life" had little context to me when I was 18-21, and I'd seen death. Hell, until I was 25 I was frickin' immortal.

Perhpas. Then again, if you saw your friend or friend of a friend get thrown into jail, maybe something will click in your mind. Then maybe it might turn into a collective click of a generation.

 

[The Golden Boy]

A 17 or 18 year old who wants to drink will find a way to get it regardless if it's legal or not. Most underagers, if not all, who want to drink will.

The idea is that it's not only just "against the law," it's more difficult to get alcohol. For you or I, we have to make a trip to the gas station or the liquor store. For someone under 21 they have to find someone that will be willing and able to go out on a limb for someone else to get up and go to a gas station or liquor store. It's not as convenient. If no one will do that for you, you don't get alcohol...

When I was in high school it was much easier for me to find an 18 year old to buy alcohol for me than it would have been for me to find a 21 year old that would go out on that limb for me.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Perhpas. Then again, if you saw your friend or friend of a friend get thrown into jail, maybe something will click in your mind. Then maybe it might turn into a collective click of a generation.

Drunk driving isn't a new problem.

 

[vicenzajay]

I've got to say that we've completely blown it on alcohol. While living 4 years in Italy, I was impressed with the way an italian family will introduce alcohol to children at a pretty young age - often watered down wine, etc.

This, combined with the fact that for most Italians, wine is something to be drunk while eating...not an activity all its own, results in a complete absence of a "mystique" about drinking that I believe causes many American youths to binge on alcohol when they get a chance to drink either legally or illegally (underage, etc.). We've created a taboo...that those young naturally consider something "special" due to it's special status.

Their is no "mystique" that alcohol holds over the young people in Italy - and this, in my humble opinion, is healthy. It encourages responsible drinking as a companion to good food and company - not a forbidden elixir to "use" to foster good times and crazy behavior.

It was very obvious when a group of young Americans would be eating and/or drinking in the same restaurant or locale while we were in Italy...they usually wound up stupidly drunk, shouting, and generally making @sses of themselves. It was really a shame given the fact that moderation in all things really leads to a much healthier attitude all around.

Jay

 

[UnsungZeros]

vicenzajay, well said. +1.

I think cultural change is the true solution to alcohol problems and a lot of society's other ills. However, how can we go about fostering a cultural change in America?