Post Jaco Recovery Group

[bassksun]

You hear Manring and Garrison on the radio?


What kind of awesome radio station do you use?

http://www.attentionspanradio.net/

In the car KNPR

 

[spc]

Has to be tough for any trumpet player who decides to use a Harmon mute...
That sound IS Miles Davis.
Same as Jaco and the fretless jazz back pickup thing.
He completely broke the instrument open...
How many times have you been in a store playing a fretless jazz, and had some dude say, "Nice...Jaco style." or some such. I've had a couple of players play the crap out of my fretless Lakland JO, just killing a dead on Jaco...
But later, I'm like, I don't really know what he sounded like.


shawn

 

[Garry Goodman]

This is a great thread!
I remember when Jaco joined Weather Report. Everybody loved his sound. Everybody tried to play some of his bass parts.

Now, 30 years after, I hear a bass player play a Jaco lick as if to say "See,I am as good as Jaco". If you are a pro bassist who also is a recording artist, you don't want to be a Jaco clone. If you are a guy just having fun, imitate Jaco to your heart's content. I hear so called "top" bass players who are unaware how heavily they have been influenced by Jaco. You can tell them ( their playing) apart by the particular way they have chosen to imitate Jaco.

I love Jaco's work. I think the "imitation is a form of flattery" has turned into guys thinking they are great players because they've incorporated many of Jaco's key elements. Many guys idolize player that imitate Jaco and Stanley. It has become just as much of a rut as "slapping".

I chose to invent my own instruments, my own techniques, my own unique sound, my own way of playing.

I think there is much to learn from Jaco, but not via imitation.

 

[Craig Garfinkel]

No waaayyyy. Try something less personal. I never criticize TB'ers work even in jest.

I'm not asking you to play critic, but rather just make an honest assessment as to whether or not you hear any clear influences. PM me if you'd rather keep your opinion private.

I'm not being contentious here. I feel that Jaco's influence on my sound and playing as a bassist are fairly significant. I hope his influence on me as a musician has been significant. What I'm curious about is if you can hear anything in my playing that makes you think "okay, here's another one".

As for being personal, you're not afraid to attempt to support your opinion with some very personal statements regarding players like Willis and Garrison as to their motivations and personal paths to musicianship, quite erroneously IMO. Actually I should say IME as I have taken lessons
with both and know quite a bit about their backgrounds, influences and current approaches to being musicians.

 

[Chunk-O-Funk]

No waaayyyy. Try something less personal. I never criticize TB'ers work even in jest.

Why not? You slamed Brunel, Willis, Garrison, and Manring pretty hard.

Of course they are not members here. Or are they?

 

[Baryonyx]

Well, Michael is, and it would be nice if Bunny and the rest were hiding out here too!

 

[Chunk-O-Funk]

Yeah, I know. I should have put the little ninja smiley after that sentence.

 

[spudmaster34]

to me, there will only ever be one like him, I don't care if someone comes along who can do excactly what he did excactly how he did it, they still arn't jaco

 

[Adam Barkley]

Let's try an experiment basskun, to see what you're getting at. Check out the link in my signature to the myspace page for the Mike Bradley Project. Play the song entitled "Rolling". Tell me what you think about the bass playing and let me know what you hear influence-wise in my playing. You can fast forward to 4:16 where there's a short bass solo.

You can certainly tell by my fairly detailed profile (ehem) what my influences are, but I'll tell you in further detail if you're interested after you listen.

I got a "97 degrees and not a cloud in skies over Phoenix" vibe from that.

 

[bassksun]

Why not? You slamed Brunel, Willis, Garrison, and Manring pretty hard.

Of course they are not members here. Or are they?

Was not a SLAM!

Clearly all of those players are demigods. In fact, they are The Post-Jacoists (except for Garrison more about him later.). This thread is not about slamming anyone.

Speaking of Mr. Manring. If you get a chance to see his interview in Bass Day 98 he talks about his development and how much Jaco influenced him. IIRC he didn't care about his "own sound" just Jaco's.

This thread is not about a criticism of individuals and their skills. I've already stated that learning the Jaco-sound is a technique we should learn if we choose to. Most, if not all of us are influenced by Jaco to some degree. That's ok with me. But it doesn't HAVE to be all the time and so obvious. Like putting salt on everything.

This thread is about bassists moving on. This thread is about having had enough of Jacoisms in every other "Jazz" composition.

We could spend gigs of space playing war of "this player vs. that player" (and that happens around TB all of the time) or "here's a tune that proves you wrong" but tht is not what this is about. It is about the discussion and about ideas. My little rant was intended to provoke discussion about our artform. Not a flame-thrower.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Speaking of Mr. Manring. If you get a chance to see his interview in Bass Day 98 he talks about his development and how much Jaco influenced him. IIRC he didn't care about his "own sound" just Jaco's.

Only thing is, even if that's true that he said that (about which I'm skeptical), he very obviously has his own sound now. Again, being influenced doesn't mean you don't have your own sound. The fact that Manring does disproves your argument.

As for being post-Jacoists, we're ALL post-Jacoists, if you think about it.

 

[bassksun]

I'm not asking you to play critic, but rather just make an honest assessment as to whether or not you hear any clear influences. PM me if you'd rather keep your opinion private.

I'm not being contentious here. I feel that Jaco's influence on my sound and playing as a bassist are fairly significant. I hope his influence on me as a musician has been significant. What I'm curious about is if you can hear anything in my playing that makes you think "okay, here's another one".

As for being personal, you're not afraid to attempt to support your opinion with some very personal statements regarding players like Willis and Garrison as to their motivations and personal paths to musicianship, quite erroneously IMO. Actually I should say IME as I have taken lessons
with both and know quite a bit about their backgrounds, influences and current approaches to being musicians.

I try to never make statements about that take on a personal tone of "like" or "dislike". Afterall, we are discussing music, musicianship-an artform. Like or dislike is immaterial. I've tried to keep the discussion as objective as possible.

Mr. Lindsey has seen to that...uh oh here he comes now.

 

[bassksun]

Only thing is, even if that's true that he said that (about which I'm skeptical), he very obviously has his own sound now. Again, being influenced doesn't mean you don't have your own sound. The fact that Manring does disproves your argument.

As for being post-Jacoists, we're ALL post-Jacoists, if you think about it.

Now why would I lie???

I wish I could post the DVD.

Yes in the broader sense of the term we are all post-Jacoists simply because we follow him in time.

I needed a category to squeeze those artists into for a little clarity.

And as far as "influence" is concerned; many of us are influnced to a greater or lesser degree. It is the greater degree that I have issues with. The Jaco-sound technologists for Jaco-sound's sake.

This disproves what? "That to play like Jaco you will sound like Jaco." ? That if you stay stuck on Jaco then Jaco will be stuck on you?

 

[Chunk-O-Funk]

Was not a SLAM!

Clearly all of those players are demigods. In fact, they are The Post-Jacoists (except for Garrison more about him later.). This thread is not about slamming anyone.

Speaking of Mr. Manring. If you get a chance to see his interview in Bass Day 98 he talks about his development and how much Jaco influenced him. IIRC he didn't care about his "own sound" just Jaco's.

This thread is not about a criticism of individuals and their skills. I've already stated that learning the Jaco-sound is a technique we should learn if we choose to. Most, if not all of us are influenced by Jaco to some degree. That's ok with me. But it doesn't HAVE to be all the time and so obvious. Like putting salt on everything.

This thread is about bassists moving on. This thread is about having had enough of Jacoisms in every other "Jazz" composition.

We could spend gigs of space playing war of "this player vs. that player" (and that happens around TB all of the time) or "here's a tune that proves you wrong" but tht is not what this is about. It is about the discussion and about ideas. My little rant was intended to provoke discussion about our artform. Not a flame-thrower.

Okay, well thanks for clearing that up.

Your original post had a certain tone to it and really made you sound as if you were annoyed that these bassist sounded like Jaco and they lacked originality because of an obvious influence. It sounded more like a put down rather than a vehicle to provoke discussion about how an overwhelming influence will guide a player in another path before finding their own voice.

 

[JacoLesFlea]

I voted kinda only because one choice was not listed :

1. There is only one Jaco so let the imitators follow.

I dig Jaco and it is nice to hear his style coming out of another bassist every once and awhile.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Now why would I lie???

I wish I could post the DVD.

Yes in the broader sense of the term we are all post-Jacoists simply because we follow him in time.

I needed a category to squeeze those artists into for a little clarity.

And as far as "influence" is concerned; many of us are influnced to a greater or lesser degree. It is the greater degree that I have issues with. The Jaco-sound technologists for Jaco-sound's sake.

This disproves what? "That to play like Jaco you will sound like Jaco." ? That if you stay stuck on Jaco then Jaco will be stuck on you?

It disproves this argument:

"I stand by my point when the artist uses the Jaco sound they reference Jaco. Not the musical idea. Nor do they reference their self."

That singing fretless sound was a big part of what Jaco added to the vocabulary. Again, you seem to be saying, it's OK to be influenced by Jaco as long as you don't actually use the stuff he added to the toolbox. I ask you, what sense would that make?

Apply your argument to Jamerson. he also changed the way the electric bass guitar was played. Are we not supposed to use anything Jamerson contributed?

And I'm not calling you a liar. Where on earth do you get that? You YOURSELF said "IIRC"--"if I recall correctly." Meaning you don't even know if you're recalling correctly. My suggestion is that perhaps you're not recalling correctly. Getting from that to saying you're lying is a big leap, and one you shouldn't make.

If your point was simply that a little copping is fine but too much is too much, then fine. But I submit that you're using the wrong people as examples. You picked precisely some of the bassists who've done the most to digest Jaco's contribution and then move on and do their own thing with it (along with other elements of their style). IOW, the ones who are least likely to be slavish Jaco copiers. That tends to dilute your point a great deal, IMO.

 

[bassksun]

Okay, well thanks for clearing that up.

Your original post had a certain tone to it and really made you sound as if you were annoyed that these bassist sounded like Jaco and they lacked originality because of an obvious influence.

Sorry about that. Sometimes I get a little oily in my tone when I get into discussions like these.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Yes in the broader sense of the term we are all post-Jacoists simply because we follow him in time.

No, that's not it. We are all post-Jacoists because we live in a bassplaying world whose boundaries and parameters were changed by what Jaco did. IOW, he enlarged the language or vocabulary available to bass players. It's important to understand that this is true regardless of whether any given player chooses to use what he added to the toolbox or not.

 

[bassksun]

It disproves this argument:

"I stand by my point when the artist uses the Jaco sound they reference Jaco. Not the musical idea. Nor do they reference their self."

That singing fretless sound was a big part of what Jaco added to the vocabulary. Again, you seem to be saying, it's OK to be influenced by Jaco as long as you don't actually use the stuff he added to the toolbox. I ask you, what sense would that make?

Apply your argument to Jamerson. he also changed the way the electric bass guitar was played. Are we not supposed to use anything Jamerson contributed?

And I'm not calling you a liar. Where on earth do you get that? You YOURSELF said "IIRC"--"if I recall correctly." Meaning you don't even know if you're recalling correctly. My suggestion is that perhaps you're not recalling correctly. Getting from that to saying you're lying is a big leap, and one you shouldn't make.

If your point was simply that a little copping is fine but too much is too much, then fine. But I submit that you're using the wrong people as examples. You picked precisely some of the bassists who've done the most to digest Jaco's contribution and then move on and do their own thing with it (along with other elements of their style). IOW, the ones who are least likely to be slavish Jaco copiers. That tends to dilute your point a great deal, IMO.

Mr Lindsey...It is so good to have you respond!

OK I understand your statement of being skeptical. I will play the DVD and post exact quotes.

In another post I described those folks as The Post-Jacoists just a tidy category for the sake of discussion.

For precisely the reasons you stated here.

I hope that clears that up. I needed a category that is like "Post-Bop", "Hard-Bop", "Be-Bop", "Avant-Gard", "Post-Modern"... Just for the sake of discussion. I don't think categorizing is useful in art for much more than that.

I'm not so sure they have moved on. I think they have developed and are stellar artists. I contend it is evident their sound still clearly owes Jaco...heavily. That is one of my points.

I arrived at this because coincidentally the http://www.attentionspanradio.net/ dj had played Manring, Brunel, etc. back to back; then he played some lesser known folks; then he played "River People" from somebody's tribute album (can't remeber who); then he played "Mr. Gone" from WR; that made me see the connections. And make the distinctions. And provoke the discussion.

The Jacosound for Jacosound sake...that is a different bunch. Slavish copiers NOT Manring et al.

 

[bassksun]

No, that's not it. We are all post-Jacoists because we live in a bassplaying world whose boundaries and parameters were changed by what Jaco did. IOW, he enlarged the language or vocabulary available to bass players. It's important to understand that this is true regardless of whether any given player chooses to use what he added to the toolbox or not.

Agreed. I think we agreed to that in a previous post. I was lumping the fact that we all follow Jaco (and what it's worth) in time, as shorthand.

As for: regardless of whether any given player chooses to use what he added to the toolbox or not I think this is either/or.
It is a matter of degree.

What I mean, of Post-Jacoists, for sake of clarity and of discussion is in the previous post...

This is fun...