Post Jaco Recovery Group

[bassksun]

About the only relief from this I get is on Attentionspanradio.net. But even then, I have to deal with an hourly run of Jaco-like...then an hour of slappin' and poppin'...then an hour of fretless growly stuff. Eventually I'll hear something experimental and/or thought provoking. For instance, last night I heard some Michael Urbaniak, Gateway Trio, Mike Stern, Pharoah Sanders, Robben Ford...just a few

 

[keb]

Only somewhat related I guess, and I think some folks will want to hang me for this, but I don't think we need any more Jaco tribute albums.




Don't get me wrong, the man was an influence on myself as well, but... enough already!

Also, a moratorium on quoting Jaco in your playing. I heard some tune (I think it was Spyro Gyra) the other day where the bassist threw in, yes, a little quote from Birdland on the intro. Just... stop. It's as tired as guitarists throwing in Hendrix quotes all the time. Okay I'll calm down and have a beer now.

 

[bassksun]

Eventually, you may hear "Teen Town" on Muzak. :scowl:

 

[bassksun]

Okay I'll calm down and have a beer now.

And 1 for me.

 

[iplaybassguitar]

i cant say ive ever heard another bassist sound like jaco...theres many out there who have been influenced by him, but in music, thats a given...everything existent today is a result in some form of copying whatever the last guy did. its all a chain of copying and innovating that keeps music going...one person plays something, the next goes, how can i do that, but make it completely my own.

you will never have any musician who doesnt sound anything like anything done before...if you can name me one, ill send you some money, or fruit or something.

 

[kserg]

I personally don't think any of those players sound like Jaco. They have all developed their own very unique styles...

Yep.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I don't have a problem with hearing a bit of Jaco in other players. He expanded the vocabulary of the instrument, in a sense. When you expand the vocabulary, the "words" and "phrases" are there for other people to use; that's what a vocabulary is, that's how it works. Are other players not supposed to use any of the new vocabulary?

OTOH, I don't like hearing people trying to copy him (or anybody else, for that matter) slavishly. It's like the difference between being influenced by somebody and actually plagiarizing that person's work.

 

[bassksun]

i cant say ive ever heard another bassist sound like jaco...theres many out there who have been influenced by him, but in music, thats a given...everything existent today is a result in some form of copying whatever the last guy did.

Please don't get me wrong. I do not mean they sound like Jaco literally. I am referring to tone, phrasing and signature Jaco sound.

Sure, every artist owes those who preceded him/her. But throughout time the artist evolves based on what is learned. Eventually to the point where their influence is not recognizable. I think Jaco was the end of something...not the beginning.

 

[bassksun]

I don't have a problem with hearing a bit of Jaco in other players. He expanded the vocabulary of the instrument, in a sense. When you expand the vocabulary, the "words" and "phrases" are there for other people to use; that's what a vocabulary is, that's how it works. Are other players not supposed to use any of the new vocabulary?

OTOH, I don't like hearing people trying to copy him (or anybody else, for that matter) slavishly. It's like the difference between being influenced by somebody and actually plagiarizing that person's work.

True. The vocabulary of the instrument and in a certain sense, composition, has been radically expanded. But I think to the point where Jaco's vocabulary has become synonymous with "Popular Jazz" or "good player". Ultimately,the vocabulary will be bankrupt and devoid of meaning.

 

[Craig Garfinkel]

I think Jaco was the end of something...not the beginning.

I doubt you'll find many that agree with you about that.

Sorry, but I don't buy your argument that somehow Jaco has so heavily influenced all the present-day "jazz bassists" they now find it impossible to escape the inevitability of being forced by major labels to become lick-stealing clones, and this in turn somehow makes Jaco himself irrelevent.

***?

 

[-Sam-]

I gotta say that personally while i do ride the back pup and get a jacoesque "sound" i like to think that my music is my own and if i was to say any one who i was similar to i would say Keith Jarrett who does things that make me cry

 

[dukerutledge]

I take inspiration from jaco, but I also take inspiration from les claypool, ravi shangkar, devendra banhart and a whole host of people bass playing or not. Frankly if you are going to imitate, imitate a variety, because thats called finding your own sound.

 

[bassksun]

I doubt you'll find many that agree with you about that.

Sorry, but I don't buy your argument that somehow Jaco has so heavily influenced all the present-day "jazz bassists" they now find it impossible to escape the inevitability of being forced by major labels to become lick-stealing clones, and this in turn somehow makes Jaco himself irrelevent.

***?

Yeah my argument is kinda "out there". But I am NOT saying Jaco or any of his work is becoming irrelevant. I AM saying that the "vocabulary" just like anything that is overused will become irrelevant. It will become a style in the most superficial sense of the word.

As far as being "the end of something" there are a couple of reasons I say that:

1. As other posters said, and I agree, Jaco stands on the shoulders of all the artists that came before. Jaco developed into something that when you stand on his shoulders you sound "like Jaco".
2. I don't think there is anything "new" to learn from the Jaco "sound" or from the vocabulary for that matter. In other words, all of the unknown territory has been explored.

Maybe someone will prove me wrong. Maybe there will be a bassist that is to Jaco what Stevie Ray was to Hendrix.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

2. I don't think there is anything "new" to learn from the Jaco "sound" or from the vocabulary for that matter. In other words, all of the unknown territory has been explored.

Even if that's true, it's completely irrelevant. Just because the vocabulary ceases to be new, it doesn't cease to be useful. Music is not made up only of things that are new, any more than language is. The word "computer" was a new coinage at one time. Now it's in common use. Why would that be a problem?

The point I was making about Jaco expanding the vocabulary of the electric bass was that he expanded the set of musical tools available to all electric bassists. He put something out there that can and should be used by others, as appropriate. It's like slapping. Is everyone who slaps copying Larry Graham or whoever? No, they're using a piece of the vocabulary that he helped generate and propagate. Once something is in the vocabulary, it's there for everyone to use. That's the whole point.

And to get back to your original point, none of those bassists are Jaco plagiarists, to my ear. They've all heard him, and incorporated some of what he did, but they all have their own thing and can be distinguished from each other without that much difficulty. In fact, I dunno if you're old enough to remember (your profile is kinda bare), but there's probably less Jaco copying going on now than in years past, specifically the late 1970s and early-middle 1980s. Back then you could scarcely go out without running into a Jaco clone. It was like street mimes in San Francisco or something.

 

[bassksun]

Even if that's true, it's completely irrelevant. Just because the vocabulary ceases to be new, it doesn't cease to be useful.

I do not think newness is my issue. New or old is not my point. My point is that the vocabulary is overused to the point that it is relegated to style rather than substance. We are talking about art. Not about the shock of the new use of a word.

I don't think I ever used the term copy. Nor did I use the term plagiarized.

And I agree with your point, wholeheartedly, that every artist puts something out there for everyone.

Yep I'm old enough, 49, to remember lots and lots of fads and fashions.

Copying is peripheral to what I mean.

My point is the sound could be called "The Jaco Sound". Most of the time there is no musical idea behind it.

Don't get me started on slappin' and poppin' or that growly fretless sound... :scowl:

Finally, I'm not trying to take anything away from the "toolbox". And I'm giving Jaco the highest compliment I think an artist can have; his genius was so great that there is nothing more. Often said of Picasso.

If you play like Jaco you will sound "like Jaco". IMO there is no way around it. I don't buy the whole "I've incorporated Jaco into my "own sound" idea.

Mimes...ugh

 

[Richard Lindsey]

If you play like Jaco you will sound "like Jaco". IMO there is no way around it. I don't buy the whole "I've incorporated Jaco into my "own sound" idea.

This is where we disagree. You're making two different points here. The first one I think is right; the second is IMO quite wrong, as evidenced by any number of good modern bassists. It's absolutely possible to incorporate what Jaco did into your own sound without playing like Jaco. If you don't think that's possible, the only logical inference is that to have your own sound, you can't use anything Jaco came up with. Which directly contradicts what you said about not wanting to take anything out of the toolbox. Either people can use Jaco's stuff or they can't. There's no way around that choice. If you admit that they can, you can't complain when they do.

 

[bassksun]

This is where we disagree. You're making two different points here. The first one I think is right; the second is IMO quite wrong, as evidenced by any number of good modern bassists. It's absolutely possible to incorporate what Jaco did into your own sound without playing like Jaco. If you don't think that's possible, the only logical inference is that to have your own sound, you can't use anything Jaco came up with. Which directly contradicts what you said about not wanting to take anything out of the toolbox. Either people can use Jaco's stuff or they can't. There's no way around that choice. If you admit that they can, you can't complain when they do.

Very good reply.

On one hand the "toolbox" statement has a moral dimension. It would be wrong for me to deny anyone the tools.

On the other I would encourage everyone to learn the technique. As a technique.

But the technique is now overplayed. My complaint is that it is too much. It is overtly the Jaco sound. And most of it is hollow. Merely stylistic. Lots of "gee whiz". Budda budda budda bup bup... It is not being used very well. There are lights in the darkness though.

IMO Alain Caron and his work with Frank Gambale is a good start. The music is actually greater than the technique used to create it.

Furthermore, you can find this kind of artistic dilution in all sorts of genres. Lately, I've noticed that every other Prog Rock band sounds like Yes. I'd rather listen to Yes.

I will agree to disagree. I stand by my point when the artist uses the Jaco sound they reference Jaco. Not the musical idea. Nor do they reference their self.

 

[Craig Garfinkel]

Let's try an experiment basskun, to see what you're getting at. Check out the link in my signature to the myspace page for the Mike Bradley Project. Play the song entitled "Rolling". Tell me what you think about the bass playing and let me know what you hear influence-wise in my playing. You can fast forward to 4:16 where there's a short bass solo.

You can certainly tell by my fairly detailed profile (ehem) what my influences are, but I'll tell you in further detail if you're interested after you listen.

 

[steve21]

You hear Manring and Garrison on the radio?


What kind of awesome radio station do you use?

 

[bassksun]

Let's try an experiment basskun, to see what you're getting at. Check out the link in my signature to the myspace page for the Mike Bradley Project. Play the song entitled "Rolling". Tell me what you think about the bass playing and let me know what you hear influence-wise in my playing. You can fast forward to 4:16 where there's a short bass solo.

You can certainly tell by my fairly detailed profile (ehem) what my influences are, but I'll tell you in further detail if you're interested after you listen.

No waaayyyy. Try something less personal. I never criticize TB'ers work even in jest.