Post Jaco Recovery Group

[Altitude]

Okay, that is so completely totally not what he said.

Come on, dude. From the response:

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Once [Jaco] said, "You think you're bad 'cause you can improvise!!" I came to find out that a lot of his stuff wasn't improvised....It turns out that even Jaco couldn't improvise those perfect solos - he used to compose the solos then perform them.
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Note: I'm not personally speculating that it is true or not, only that Marcus said it was.

Is it your position that Marcus' assertion in saying the above is other than that Jaco could not effectively improvise?

 

[bassksun]

I think Marcus may have meant that Jaco could not or did not improvise in the classic jazz, stream of conciousness sense. Who would have thought that those amazing solos were composed?!! At least according to Marcus. But also as Marcus said he was blown away by Jaco as a composer. Which leaves us again with another dimension of Jaco that is often understood.

Somewhere else in this thread we commented how many players get the sound and technique but rarely the compositional impact.

The pre eminence of Jaco is not contested here. If you think so you are missing the point. If you try to invalidate Jaco you will need an argument on the level of Plato or Einstein.

As morebass said,
"Not to say you're not free to play it when you feel it but what's the point in recording it? We've heard the master speak and repetition is not necessary.

Even Marcus Miller's fretless work sounds like Jaco to me. Here's a guy with an incredible voice on the instrument and even he can't escape the pull of planet Jaco!"


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[Altitude]

The pre eminence of Jaco is not contested here.

Most certainly not. My point was that when I read Marcus' quote, I was surprised myself.

And to be clear, when we say "improvise", we mean to structure a series of notes in a sensible and melodic way based upon a set of chord changes. Jazz or otherwise.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I have to say, though, that improvise and solo are not the same thing. You can improvise all night and never solo. I can believe that Jaco composed his solos, if that's what the evidence says. That doesn't mean he didn't improvise, though.

 

[dougjwray]

I have to say, though, that improvise and solo are not the same thing. You can improvise all night and never solo. I can believe that Jaco composed his solos, if that's what the evidence says. That doesn't mean he didn't improvise, though.

Very true. Also, there's the possibility that what Marcus meant was that Jaco sketched out the broad outlines of his solos in advance before he played them-- maybe even only mentally (not on paper). There's a lot of vagueness here.

 

[policyvote]

Come on, dude. From the response:

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Once [Jaco] said, "You think you're bad 'cause you can improvise!!" I came to find out that a lot of his stuff wasn't improvised....It turns out that even Jaco couldn't improvise those perfect solos - he used to compose the solos then perform them.
********************

Note: I'm not personally speculating that it is true or not, only that Marcus said it was.

Is it your position that Marcus' assertion in saying the above is other than that Jaco could not effectively improvise?

That's exactly my position. The operative word is "solos". The quote above says that he used to compose a lot of his best solos, or at least map them out ahead of time. Jaco, remember, did not just release a solo album and take the world by storm, he was a professionally gigging and touring bassist with some big acts from a VERY young age, and you can't possibly hold down gigs like that without at least being able to read a chart and make up a good line. You CERTAINLY can't gig and record with the foremost fusion group of the time, as well as damn near every other halfway decent cat of the time, without being able to improvise.

Read Bill Milkowski (sp?)'s biography on him, just called "Jaco". About every other page is a quote or story from a musical giant about how fantastically, almost mythically skilled tand talented he was. Like at one audition, where he showed, burned every song to the ground, but then when they called out "All the Things You Are" he asked for a chart. Everyone boggled, because they thought a jazz bassist couldn't possibly not know that song. The bandleader asked "How did you know all the other songs we just played, then?" And Jaco goes, "Oh, I caught your show last Thursday."

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[Altitude]

Like at one audition, where he showed, burned every song to the ground, but then when they called out "All the Things You Are" he asked for a chart. Everyone boggled, because they thought a jazz bassist couldn't possibly not know that song. The bandleader asked "How did you know all the other songs we just played, then?" And Jaco goes, "Oh, I caught your show last Thursday."

I have read Milkowski's book, and it suddeny occurs to me that we may be trying to make the same point (or you and Marcus Miller may be). And it is this: Jaco was so talented that he was able to develop himself as a player, and definitely as a composer, far faster than he was able to learn theory. He was an icon, and he didn't know "All The Things You Are".

And, according to Marcus Miller, who knew him, Jaco could not improvise.

Now, while "improvise" can mean many things in the english language, it is, in my experience, narrowly defined as used in the world of jazz music. In this world, it means "to structure a melody over a set of chord changes without pre-plannng what the notes will be." In most cases, this is done when the player has an opportunity to solo.

When jazz players say "improvise", they do not mean "respond to an unplanned change in the feel of the song" or "break down the tune into a vamp while the singer tells a story", although these could both be legitimate uses of the term otherwise.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

And, according to Marcus Miller, who knew him, Jaco could not improvise.

By your own quote, this is not exactly what Marcus said. He said that "a lot of his stuff wasn't improvised," and that "even Jaco couldn't improvise those perfect solos."

This is not saying he couldn't improvise. You can't function over any extended period in a jazz context, with jazz musicians, without being able to improvise to some extent. At least you can't if you're a rhythm section player in a small ensemble (I guess if you're third trumpet in a big band, you could get by with just playing the ink).

I don't think the term improvise has quite as narrow a meaning as you suggest, even in a jazz context, though I agree that in jazz it's very often (perhaps most often) applied to soloing. But when a pianist lays out some new chords before the head of a tune starts, he can be said to be improvising an intro. When a bassist is handed a chart of a standard with nothing but chord names and a couple of rhythm hits, he can be said to be improvising a walking bass line. A jazz bassist who doesn't take a solo all night is still an improvising musician, if he's not reading his entire part note by note.

I suspect that what Jaco meant was something more like, "You think you're bad because you can make up (good) solos on the spot."

The logical consequence of believing that Jaco couldn't improvise is to believe that he could only (a) play something he'd already composed or (2) reproduce, without alteration, something he'd already heard. Neither of which seems to fit the musician I remember hearing and seeing, or for that matter the one depicted in Milkowski's book.

Regarding the anecdote about All The Things, I'll have to check myself on this, but what I recall from the book (which I read a few weeks ago) is that he supposedly looked at the chart once, then put it away and proceed to burn the tune down. That's something that would be beyond the capacity of someone who can't improvise.

 

[Altitude]

By your own quote, this is not exactly what Marcus said. He said that "a lot of his stuff wasn't improvised," and that "even Jaco couldn't improvise those perfect solos."

It was Marcus' quote.

OK, you guys win. This is starting to remind me of the last litigation I was involved in. I'm sure Jaco could improvise brilliantly, right up there with Coltrane, and that Marcus meant something entirely different than what he seems to have written on his website.

Doesn't anybody know Marcus? Let's just ask him.

 

[bassksun]

Most certainly not. My point was that when I read Marcus' quote, I was surprised myself.

And to be clear, when we say "improvise", we mean to structure a series of notes in a sensible and melodic way based upon a set of chord changes. Jazz or otherwise.

Yes. I stand corrected on the definition.

 

[bassksun]

It was Marcus' quote.

OK, you guys win. This is starting to remind me of the last litigation I was involved in. I'm sure Jaco could improvise brilliantly, right up there with Coltrane, and that Marcus meant something entirely different than what he seems to have written on his website.

Doesn't anybody know Marcus? Let's just ask him.

Maybe he couldn't improvise.

It is hard to believe that there is a serious flaw in our perception of Jaco as a complete "jazz" artist. Or there is a failing in Jaco as a player. Even from a reputable source such as Marcus. I think the person who would know Jaco's process the best would be Zawinul. Maybe Shorter.

Jaco and Coltrane....very dry my friend.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Maybe he couldn't improvise.

And maybe he could improvise ... but couldn't come up with great solos on the spot all that well. Once again, soloing and improvising aren't the same thing.

It's not at all hard to think of Jaco having musical flaws and weaknesses; it's much harder to think of him, or anybody, having none. I just think that if we're gonna bother to examine somebody's work, we should get things as right as we can.

 

[policyvote]

It was Marcus' quote.

OK, you guys win. This is starting to remind me of the last litigation I was involved in. I'm sure Jaco could improvise brilliantly, right up there with Coltrane, and that Marcus meant something entirely different than what he seems to have written on his website.

Doesn't anybody know Marcus? Let's just ask him.

Again, I totally believe Marcus when he said that "a lot of his stuff wasn't improvised". That makes a lot of sense, Jaco was completely redefining what was possible on the electric bass. But if you read Milkowski's book, then you read about dozens of indicidents where he displayed incredible on-the-spot, unrehearsed, musicianship, where he could walk up and play incredible lines and parts, just by ear. ERGO, he demostrably "could improvise".

Even if you define "improvise" as "take an groundbreakingly amazing solo, without sheet music or any real idea of what you're about to play" (which IMO is not an accurate definition), and you then say "Jaco couldn't improvise"; even if every solo Jaco ever took was completely written out beforehand (extremely dubious), those solos still stand as incredible musical creations, and light-years ahead of anyone else at the time. Therefore, he still stands as a monstrously skilled and talented player, innovator, composer, arranger, etc., etc., etc.

To me it simply stands to reason that after thirty years of bass players building off the foundations he laid, many modern pros have surpassed where he got to in some areas. SRV took Hendrix's sound to the next level, especially technically, but that doesn't invalidate Hendrix's work--any more than Hendrix invalidated Buddy Guy or Chuck Berry or B.B. King or Robert Johnson or . . .

To me this is kind of like someone dragging up a quote by Eric Clapton talking about how when he sat down to work out the cover of "Crossroads", he realized that Robert Johnson dropped time and added beats and so maybe he wasn't that good after all . . .

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