If I want to hear Jaco, I listen to Jaco. But if someone can fit Jaco esque playing into a different (non jazzy or really out there) setting, I'm glad to hear it.
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Post Jaco Recovery Group
- Thread starter bassksun
- Start date
From Bass Day '98-
I went through a period when I was really into Jaco and I decided [that] I am not even going to try to have my own voice. What is the point? I mean, this guy has so much going on that I could spend the rest of my life trying to understand that...Im not even going to think about having my own identity at all. Then [these]... little ideas of things I wanted to try and little by little they evolved... a lot in fact was I trying real real hard to play like Jaco. Sometimes I got pretty close. I sounded pretty much like him except for this little thing and that little thing. Thats me those two little things I tried to get rid of are me."
I went through a period when I was really into Jaco and I decided [that] I am not even going to try to have my own voice. What is the point? I mean, this guy has so much going on that I could spend the rest of my life trying to understand that...Im not even going to think about having my own identity at all. Then [these]... little ideas of things I wanted to try and little by little they evolved... a lot in fact was I trying real real hard to play like Jaco. Sometimes I got pretty close. I sounded pretty much like him except for this little thing and that little thing. Thats me those two little things I tried to get rid of are me."
HI
More sour grapes on Talkbass. He was a great artist and so are the others u listed. Get over it.
Rob
More sour grapes on Talkbass. He was a great artist and so are the others u listed. Get over it.
Rob
HI
What dont you understand? One of our greatest artists influencing thousands after him. Sort of like Hendrix, Van Halen, you name it. ????????????????
Rob
What dont you understand? One of our greatest artists influencing thousands after him. Sort of like Hendrix, Van Halen, you name it. ????????????????
Rob
I don't understand your point or what you are contributing to the discussion.bikeplate said:
But I think I left out Jeff Berlin.
bassksun said:
That's interesting as a view into his process. As I said before, I wasn't claiming you were consciously misrepresenting, I just was interested in what he actually said.
A couple of things, though. First, his saying he "went through a period" of doing this suggests that he's no longer in that period, that he's gone beyond. Second, and more conclusively, what you play counts for more than what you say. And by whatever means he got there, today Manring has a voice on the bass that is not at all identical to Jaco and is easily distinguishable. It doesn't bug me at all that he employs some of the things that Jaco developed in his own way. It would bug me if he were a Jaco clone.
Richard Lindsey said:
I know you were'nt claiming that I was misrepresenting.
I should have posted the direct quote in the first place. I found that to be seriously interesting on a couple of levels. More on that later.
Richard Lindsey said:
(Emphasis mine)
I'm curious.
What is the diffrence between a Jaco clone and someone who employs the Jaco vocabulary in a meaningful way?
What kinds of things do you listen for?
Finally, do you think it is useful for us as artists to be able to look at artistic development as a continuum and make distinctions about the origins?
Not setting you up. You are an articulate poster. I am curious about what you think.
bassksun said:I know you were'nt claiming that I was misrepresenting.
I should have posted the direct quote in the first place. I found that to be seriously interesting on a couple of levels. More on that later.
(Emphasis mine)
I'm curious.
What is the diffrence between a Jaco clone and someone who employs the Jaco vocabulary in a meaningful way?
What kinds of things do you listen for?
Finally, do you think it is useful for us as artists to be able to look at artistic development as a continuum and make distinctions about the origins?
Not setting you up. You are an articulate poster. I am curious about what you think.
Well, OK, I'll play. A Jaco "clone," to me, would be someone who tries to sound just like Jaco, to play predominantly Jaco's licks, to cop his whole style (not just a few of its trappings), and to approach most any musical situation the same way they imagine Jaco would. IOW, it's not just playing a fretless with mwah (hate that word, but it serves for the moment). It's not so much an effort to capture the spirit but more of an obsession with the letter. I mean, back in the day, I saw my share of guys with fretless Js, Acoustic amps, and even the damn headbands....
Someone who uses Jaco's contributions in a meaningful way is not obsessed with duplicating the specific details of what Jaco did (unless in the context of a specific type of tribute, as Brian Bromberg did). It's more about incorporating something of the spirit. For example, for me one of Jaco's main contributions was in bringing a greater melodic expressivity, of a certain type, to the electric bass; it wasn't just turning the bass up, it was adding touch and nuance in a way that really hadn't been done before, and it was making a statement about the EBG as a melodic instrument. You can use that contribution by attempting to bring that kind of touch and nuance and subtlety and melodic confidence to your own playing. The key is that you can do this without playing any of Jaco's licks at all. IOW, you can honor the spirit even if you basically ignore the letter. (Not that I'm saying you can't ever play a Jaco lick if you want to be yourself. Everybody borrows; everybody steals.) Or you can use some version of the letter (e.g., singing fretless tone), but use it in your own words and sentences. (I realize I'm seriously abusing this metaphor now.
) That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.About the other thing--"do you think it is useful for us as artists to be able to look at artistic development as a continuum and make distinctions about the origins?"--I'm not quite sure what you mean. AFAICS, artistic development is always a continuum. Generally, I believe that music is about results: if the music is good, it's good. Personally, I don't really care by what road artists get where they get, as long as I like the results. This means that I wouldn't make any distinctions about an artist on the basis of the origins of what they do. I don't know if that's what you were asking or not.
Richard Lindsey said:
Exactly. This type of player plays everything "as if Jaco would". Also, I extend this to the overtly "modern jazz" sound produced on so many recordings. This is Jaco-esque.
"I mean, back in the day, I saw my share of guys with fretless Js, Acoustic amps, and even the damn headbands...."
I remember that :scowl:
Richard Lindsey said:
To me the highest development of this are the Post Jacoists:
Manring, Berlin, Willis, etc. I would compile a list; but its too much for now. These artists were not so much "clones" as much as students. They devoted their entire selves to understanding, playing and digesting everything of Jaco's contributions. These are the students. The successful graduates of Jaco U.
What they have learned is inseparable from what and how they play. "The key is that you can do this without playing any of Jaco's licks at all. IOW, you can honor the spirit even if you basically ignore the letter. (Not that I'm saying you can't ever play a Jaco lick if you want to be yourself. Everybody borrows; everybody steals.) Or you can use some version of the letter (e.g., singing fretless tone), but use it in your own words and sentences. (I realize I'm seriously abusing this metaphor now.
) That's the kind of thing I'm talking about."No issue here for me. Never has been. We regarded this as a "tool in the toolbox". To be clear; I think that this tool is recognizable as "Jaco". It references Jaco's "vocabulary". It is not one's own sound. (side note: If someone played a jazz lick could we say, "He's playing Scott LaFaro!") I'll agree to disagree with anyone on that.
Richard Lindsey said:
Yes. That is what I'm asking.
First. I had to ask because I do not know if you believed or understood that music is a continuum. Maybe you did not. Glad to see you do.
Second. I'll stay away from the good/not good. "I like to-may-toes you like to-mah-toes..."
Third. I'm looking at all of this from an art historical point. I think it is significant to trace development of our art from the influences of those who had great impact on bass playing and the music as a whole. Moreover, it is important to discuss those distinctions because it adds a greater depth of understanding. (It is Talkbass after all)
Distinctions do not take anything away from the percieved greatness of an artist nor does it add to the reputation of a mediocre one. It does help to clarify and expand. In a limited sense mind you. Art can not be broken into words. If we could we would have the thing that let's express what words do not. So, I mean these distinctions in a limited fashion. Only for the purpose for what they are intended.We need, as bassists, to step out of the bottom. It is good for us to challenge received notations about our artists or our art. Why should all of the chordal instrumentalists do all of the thinking? Clearly there is more to us than discussions of G.A.S. and technique.
We live in a unique time where we can actually see how the influence of a single artist, Jaco in this instance, can effect an entire artistic culture. From classical to pop. From the personal to the academic.
Finally, Richard, I want to thank you for the intelligent disussion. I appreciate your thoughts. It is very refreshing to not have to put up with meatball comments.
Off to start my blog.
Peace
rockstarbassist
Inactive
bassksun said:
nah...i think to be a great musician, you have to be the beginning of something...you cant be good and end something...look at guys like chuck berry and elvis...they were clearly the beginning of rock...and they were great...
+1, and who doesn't have a library of licks, large or small, that they choose from - I think Mike Stern only has about four (but I dig them all).jady said:
Also, I've read that Jaco couldn't improvise - if true, I bet a lot of players would be surprised to know that.
He also had a very certain type of personality that, combined with his outstanding musical sense and the scene he found himself in, created a "perfect storm" that allowed him to rise to the top of his field.
bikeplate said:
Well said... I've been waiting for someone else to basically say what I had in mind, sans the expletives and all.
"Also, I've read that Jaco couldn't improvise"
Uh, WHAT. The man was a world-class jazz musician! By definition, he could improvise. This is so ridiculous I don't even know where to start.
Peace
policy
Uh, WHAT. The man was a world-class jazz musician! By definition, he could improvise. This is so ridiculous I don't even know where to start.
Peace
policy
Let's start with Marcus Miller, who is the guy who said it. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].policyvote said:
Good thread. I use the back pickup tone sometimes too but am annoyed by all the electric jazz players that seem obligated to throw in a Jaco-sounding solo. I love alot of Jaco's stuff (not all of it 
) but think it's overdone in the jazz fusion context. Not to say you're not free to play it when you feel it but what's the point in recording it? We've heard the master speak and repetition is not necessary.
Even Marcus Miller's fretless work sounds like Jaco to me. Here's a guy with an incredible voice on the instrument and even he can't escape the pull of planet Jaco!
) but think it's overdone in the jazz fusion context. Not to say you're not free to play it when you feel it but what's the point in recording it? We've heard the master speak and repetition is not necessary. Even Marcus Miller's fretless work sounds like Jaco to me. Here's a guy with an incredible voice on the instrument and even he can't escape the pull of planet Jaco!
WJGreer said:
Okay, that is so completely totally not what he said. "Did you know? Jaco used to compose many of his solos, or at least map parts out ahead of time" is NOT the same as "Did you know? Jaco couldn't improvise". If half of what I've read about Jaco's ears, chops, and on-the-spot musicality is true, then Jaco was a fantastic improvisational musician. People seem to forget that he's been dead for a quarter of a century--and that the explosion and maturation of the electric bass as a solo instrument basically started with him and matured AFTER his death. So when you say, "Did you know that Jaco couldn't do "X" as well as many pros today?" Well, remember that those pros spent their whole musical lives spinning, dissecting, learning, and copping tricks and licks from him. When Jaco hit the scene, the very notion of a bassist who could solo like a horn player, and in fact cut a solo album was revolutionary. Of course, twenty years later, there would be many players who could build on the foundations that he laid; that doesn't INVALDIATE his credentials as a player, just the opposite in fact.
Peace
policy
