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Power Cable for a Bass Amp Question

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Originally posted by pkr2
It will be very interesting to see how the d.b.t. is avoided. Something unexpected will come up. You can bet on it.

So far, Long (TCG) has been very forthcoming about scheduling this testing. The sticking point has been trying to find some available time for Pat Quilter's participation.
 
I tried honestly to read all of this, but I just couldn't get thru all of it.

I have *pretty strong doubts* that the power cable can make better something that is subsequently passed thru a low-bandwidth transformer, munched up by rectifiers, and filtered by large capacitors. Or on the other hand chopped at 100kHz and then rectified.

In fact, if the power cable DID make a difference, I'd be just a little bit worried......

That aside, I have a funny story. I better not mention names, but the story is true as told to me by one participant.

One of the bigger wigs at the US branch of a European manufacturer of test equipment came thru our place a couple years ago and while we were talking, we got onto the subject of cables.

It turned out that they made some equipment that they figured would be perfect for checking cables with. So he went to one of the big name high dollar cable companies, and showed how they could characterise the cable every way from Sunday. They had graphs of impedance, group delay, you name it.

They proudly showed these to the manufacturer's tech person, who then said something on the order of "Well I'll be doggoned. We never have tested this stuff. I was always curious what it did, but our customers don't want graphs."

No sale there...........and not much interest in any technical matters.......I wonder how they QC checked each incoming batch of wire?
 
Whoa! I am so out of it. I didn't realize TCG is Long Ly. I bought two basses from Long (55-94 and Pedulla T-bolt fretless), and I have to say that I found him to be very forthright and pleasant to deal with. I don't doubt Long's sincerety about his products; he sold Tara Labs cables at LABX. I am surprised that he buys into this power cord thing. Just goes to show you, everyone is susceptible to superstition.
 
A few thoughts:

I have no clue what a power cable could do other than have too much voltage drop.

But on signal and speaker cables, I think I have an idea.

Let me first say that I don't know about improvements due to the cable, but changes, yes I have seen that.

So. A lot of the high end signal and speaker cables seem to have one of a few characteristics.

They may

1)Have a larger conductor size (speaker cables)

2)Have very low capacitance (signal cables)

3)Have larger than normal capacitance (the woven small-gauge speaker cables)

4)Have some magic box attached in the middle of the cable (either speaker or signal cables).

5)Claim some sort of improved conductor material, and usually sport a fancy jacket to "prove" it

I am leaving off the usual huge price.


#1 is usually no problem, might be better, same for #2 if the shielding is good.

#3 may lead to a warmer sound if there is a rolloff as a result of the capacitance, may also lead to an interaction with an output coil etc. Either way it may flunk the "no signal alteration" test.

#4 is probably always BS, anything that could be put in a small "lump" in the cable is probably/surely not going to help.

#5 is also probably always BS, since there are a limited number of elements that can be used for wires and only a few are practical or useful.


My question to the group is:

Suppose for the moment that you ignore the question of whether there is a large improvement in sound from a signal or power cable.

I have a tie-breaker question....

What is it about the cable in question justifies the huge cost?

In the case of the super-duper power cable, there is a picture of it back a dozen pages or so. Aside from it probably not being UL recognized, what is there about it that means it should cost $175?

Is there a material cost that justifies it?

Is there a lot of expensive testing that it must pass to be "qualified" as a "brand X" cable?

Or, is it a matter of "we have it, you want it, pay up or go away"?

Each amplifier brand has a cost of its products, and generally the costs are based on production cost plus cost of marketing etc, and a profit. But I don't think that those are out of line. Most cheap amps are cheap to buy too. There isn't generally a plan to sell for $1000 what costs only $10.

Cables seem different to me.

The cables, all of them, don't seem to pass the "smell test".

In fact, that might be really appropriate. I read where a perfume manufacturer was having trouble selling their stuff at $6 per bottle. They were told by consultants to put it in a nicer bottle and sell it for $30. They did, and sales shot up. So did profits, of course.

The idea was that it was no longer "cheap perfume", proven by the price.

For the cable, the price does the same thing, who would have the gall to sell $8 worth of cable and connectors for $175, or $400 per foot etc? Obviously there must be something special about it.

Then look at the implied slam in much of the cable advertising, it's subtly put forth as "of course if you are one of those who can't hear the difference, then go ahead and be happy with your old cable, our product is not for you".

Now, are you one of the "defective ones" or are you a true golden ear? Notice that the plan is to define you as a "defective" if you don't hear a difference.

Their house, their toys, their game.

Hmmmmmmmm.
 
I was just as skeptical as anybody on here about the merits of using a "special" power cable for my bass amp. I know it sounds like vodoo, but I'm telling you truthfully that with high end gear, I hear a clear difference. I took my own rig into the store and tried it before buying the MIT cable. I am also using the Tara Labs bass-to-amp cable. What I hear is increased definition of the low notes. It's not subtle! The top end also has a more "open" feel. It's almost like lifting a veil off a painting. I didn't notice the difference as much with a lower end bass. If I hadn't heard it with my own rig, I wouldn't believe it either, so I understand your skepticism. Is it worth the money? I spent $2000 on a beautful BN4 F Bass, and over $3000 on a dream bass rig. I've been using this setup for two years, and every time I pick up my bass I just go WOW. Everytime! So believe it, or don't believe it, I just know I'm finally happy with my sound.
 
Welcome to TB Triode6l6a! It's always good to hear user reviews. How much did you pay for your cables? Please consider posting in some other threads so we don't assume you are a Tara shill who joined just to support their side on this topic.
 
Thanks for the warm welcome jondog. I've been playing for 36 years, and believe me, if you would have told me I'd pay $175 for a power cable, and $300 for the bass cable I would have said you were crazy! I work to hard for my money. But I've never been sorry. I'd never really head my F Bass's, or my rig's, full potential until I got those cables. They sounded great before, but the difference in how I sound with the band is astounding. Again, I think you hear the benifits more with high fidelity rigs and basses, so it might not be worth it for every body. And I'm a chuaffeur by day, not a Tara shill, so I'll see you on the other forums. Thanks again....
 
triode, let me ask you sumtin'

Would you say that using the Tara power cables improves your high end response? Does it filter out some offending mid range? Does it allow your amp to put out more power? Part of what contributes to the skepticism, including mine, is this vague "it just sounds better" claim that doesn't attempt to explain qualitatively HOW it sounds better.

I know that when I switched from my Trace Elliot head to the SWR, I knew what characteristics sounded better to my ears. It wasn't just the "gee whiz it's new" factor. I can't afford "gee whiz".
 
Howdy ihixulu, First, let me say that I would NEVER have even considered this possible if I hadn't heard it personally, and I don't think any of you should either. The only way you should spend this kind of money is if you hear it yourself first! Ok, second, I'm using a Z cord II, made by MIT, as the power cord to the Crown K1 amp. I'm using a Tara Labs Ultima to connect the bass to an Eden Navigator pre-amp. I was using Monster BASS 500 prolink. What I hear when changing the regular power cable for the MIT is more definition in the notes. When you go back to the other cable, you really realize how muddy it was. Not a super huge difference, but very noticeable, and the highs have more "sparkle". Hey, this is in the realm of esoteric gear, so it needs those kinds of terms. Open, airy, more spacious, more clearly defined notes. Hearing is believing. I'd spend the money again, I love this sound. This is my hobby,and I can afford it. Peace my brothers and sisters.
 
Okay, they talked me into it... I bought a $500 power cord for my computer. Man, the difference is incredible!! The colors on the monitor are now so much more vibrant, it's like sunglasses have been taken off. And the cable modem reacts so much more quickly, files that took 30 seconds to load before, now only take half a minute. The hard drive is much faster too.

Best of all, I haven't gotten near as much spam. Who would have thought that a mere cable could provide such a benefit.:rolleyes:
 
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I was just as skeptical as anybody.........

.....and believe me, if you would have told me I'd pay $175 for a power cable, and $300 for the bass cable I would have said you were crazy!

I would NEVER have even considered this possible if I hadn't heard it personally, and I don't think any of you should either.

You guys should see my bag of cables. It weighs more than my amp and it's got every kind of lead imaginable in there. Power cables, speaker cabless, instrument cables, long ones, short ones, thick ones, thinner ones, expensive ones, cheap ones, home-made ones, everything.

You wanna know which cables I prefer? Answer = N/A. I usually just stick my hand into the bag and use whichever one comes out first. They all sound the same.

If I'm proven wrong by the blind test, I will gladly retract all my statements of skeptisism and publically apologise to all the believers. But I have to say I don't think we will see Bob Lee opening his posts with lines akin to something out of penthouse forum. No offense triode but your testimonials read way too much like their marketing blurbs. I think Munji has another sneeze comming on.
 
It is my understanding that amps run on dc. I don't know if anyone has gone through the process of changing ac to dc here yet, but it is important. The bottomline is that as long as your input voltage has a root mean squared rating of 120 V it doesnt matter what its waveform looks like. The voltage goes into a bridge rectifier and then is run through MANY filter capacitors to change whatever goes in into almost straight line dc. Then it is probably run through a voltage regulator and converted into true straight line dc. The input voltage is run through a transformer, so square wave ac wont work in that respect, but anything that can have a continuous function fitted to its graph will.
 
I'm so glad I'm not an audiophile.

misterdisc.jpg


Ok, back to my scratchy records..

- Cowboy
 
Originally posted by jefferson04
It is my understanding that amps run on dc. I don't know if anyone has gone through the process of changing ac to dc here yet, but it is important. The bottomline is that as long as your input voltage has a root mean squared rating of 120 V it doesnt matter what its waveform looks like. The voltage goes into a bridge rectifier and then is run through MANY filter capacitors to change whatever goes in into almost straight line dc. Then it is probably run through a voltage regulator and converted into true straight line dc. The input voltage is run through a transformer, so square wave ac wont work in that respect, but anything that can have a continuous function fitted to its graph will.

Yeah, no doubt.......
someone also mentioned the low-bandwidth transformer it goes through, if it is a standard power supply. I would suppose that might pretty much negate any effect of polished wire, etc.

And of course, in the case of QSC, the Switchmode power supply REALLY runs the power thru the mill.

(BTW, square wave AC works, but often causes a buzz. I have run off a battery inverter before)


I think most of the cable folks trade on the high price, the techie-but-irrelevant construction details, and that final nagging doubt in the mind as to whether there really isn't a difference after-all.

There is also "Beranek's law". Leo Beranek was a heavy dude in acoustics back a while, wrote "the" standard text, etc.
He apparently said that "if you build your own speakers, choosing components carefully, they will sound better than any other speakers". I generally hear that with the added bit "for at least two weeks".

So I propose "Tara's law": If you pay that much for a power cable, it will cause your amp to sound better for as long as you still remember the price you paid for the cable."
 
I keep seeing this thread bumped and jump to it, anxious for the test results. Instead, I see the same joke I saw last time and the time before, etc. The horse has long been dead. If you insist on beating it, please, at least be creative (GooseYArd, I salute you). Otherwise, let's wait for the results. :)

Edit: This doesn't apply to everyone who has posted, obviously. :p
 
Anybody here remember that guy in Italy that used to run around telling everyone that the earth was round? They all said he was nuts!!

When I hear it, I'll believe it, or not.
 
Originally posted by triode6L6a
Ok, second, I'm using a Z cord II, made by MIT, as the power cord to the Crown K1 amp.

I have never seen a Crown K Series with an IEC connector (detachable cord). Every one I have owned (including the K1 I have now) had a short permanently-attached power cord. 'Splain yourself, Lucy.
 
Good question Nightbass. I didn't want to void the warranty on the K1, so I had a Furman PL-Plus modified to accept the IEC connector. Now I plug everthing thru that. By the way Petebass, I'm not offended. You're right, I do sound like an ad, but that really is how I feel. After reading all the threads again I went back and did my own test to see if maybe I WAS imagining this. I'm glad I did. It blew me away how much difference there is. It's like putting on a new set of strings, that much difference!. However, I just tried this using a little GK MB150E, and the difference was not nearly as apparant. Go figure. I agree with ChenNuts44, lets wait for the test. I just saw this thread and wanted to relate my own personal experience. I'm seriously looking forward to the results. And hey, nashvillebill, you are one funny dude. I love a good laugh, thanks.
 
Wooh dude, are you saying that *adding* the fancy power cable made it sound better, even though the bad old original one was still being used? if I get you, the Tara cable goes into the Furman, and that goes thru the original power cable to the K1.

So not only does it sound better, but it can make the original power cable sound better too?

Forget the power cords, I'm gonna have the bars splice a piece in on their incoming powerline, that'll take care of the whole band, and make the lights shine clearer too.
 
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