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Power Cable for a Bass Amp Question

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Ladies and Gentlemen, this is Chewbacca:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Chewbacca is a giant hairy wookie. However, Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now that does NOT make sense.

Why would a six foot tall wookie like Chewbacca want to live on a planet full of a bunch of little Ewoks?

THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

Does this cable make you sound better? I don't know, but IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

Ladies and Gentlemen if Chewbacca is a six foot tall wookie who lives on Endor and none of this makes sense, then you have to buy this Tara cable because you don't know what you may be missing!
 
Originally posted by Bob Lee (QSC)
Okay. And your point is what, John?



Sounds like you want to do a sales demo, just like the ones that you've told us about in this thread. A demo posed as an uncontrolled "test" would be a waste of both our time. Look, I don't let telemarketers commandeer an hour of my time, either, even if they pitch their product as the greatest thing since garlic bread. There are plenty of people pushing products with seemingly magical properties, and forgive me if I choose to not be the recipient of endless sales pitches for them.


Bob,
I don't see how it could be a waste of time for either of us unless you are concerned that you might actually hear a difference. Both Long and I have agreed to meet at QSC for a controlled test with you and whoever wants to come.Why is it though if I ask you come to another place to "listen" that it becomes a sales demo,yet if we do it at QSC,it becomes a test? I realize that I don't have any fancy testing equipment like you do at QSC,but,with you being a professional in the pro-audio industry,I would think you would jump at the chance to check it out for yourself.You never know,it might impress you so much that you might want to offer a high-end cable as an upgrade option at QSC!!!If you would rather wait until your boss can be there,no problem,I can wait and do it at QSC.I just can't understand that if you are so sure that you are right and that these cables don't make a difference,why you don't jump at the chance to take me up on my offer to come down and see what happens!

John
 
I came across this comment in another discussion forum today:

"But if there are NO measurable difference at all anywhere then there cannot be an audible difference."

Like you, I am a materialist, and so I don't disagree with what you are saying here. But since I do hear repeatable differences all of the time that have no measurements associated with them, my conclusion is that we haven't found a way to measure everything we can hear, yet. I do think that time will come but I also think it's not imminent. I think we will have to learn more about how the ear/brain connection works, in great detail, before we'll get a grip on what needs to be measured in equipment that sends information our way.

In the meantime, I have come to trust my ears, in general and when the experience is repeatable, because I can't imagine what competitive advantage Nature would have seen in giving us ears that deceive us on a regular basis.

Interesting viewpoint.

jd
 
Originally posted by jdombrow
Passinwind:

You have an interesting approach, and I'm not going to disagree with any of it; however, it is not the typical approach that most musicians take. In fact, I've never heard anyone hear on TalkBass say they won't audition an amp, or cabinet, or anything else until someone sends them a soundclip. Maybe you could trust those clips in a good studio, but many computer speakers will make it impossible to make a judgement of something's true sound.

Maybe on your USENET, they say "post a clip", but here on Talkbass they say "trust your own ears".

JD

That's cool, but listening to a clip does allow you to judge with your ears; albeit imperfectly at best, in many cases. I wouldn't use computer speakers, of course. I live way out in the boonies, I make my own gear mostly, and I correspond with lots of folks who do the same. We can only get together face to face once in a while, so this is what works for us. If one's primary interest is in how things work in a recording, listening to recordings seems like a pretty logical place to start, no? I was actually suggesting a spectral analysis graph as the more appropriate demonstration in this case, which makes me even less typical, I guess.

Since I'm an audio repair guy, people bring me stuff to try fairly often. The local music store asks me to take gear home, or to a gig, and test it thoroughly. I never would have bought my new bass if the builder hadn't handed one to me at a jam session. So, at home I work from a much different model. I didn't say I wouldn't audition a cab or amp, I said I wouldn't audition a $175 power cable without a better carrot.

Online, posting sound files is sometimes more valuable to me than a simple verbal opinion. Naturally, I'm still going to want to audition gear live myself, when possible, but I don't have much time or motivation to cull through stuff that hasn't already piqued my interest.

Talkbass interests me because it gives me access to a much larger body of opinions. The better I know a poster, the more likely I am to value their input. I would hope and expect that any manufacturer who wants to sell me something online could produce a decent recording of some sort, or good solid specs in the case of something like a power amp. I'm not necessarily surprised that this is not SOP, but I personally feel that it ought to be. Just about every boutique guitar EFX maker now does this, and I'd bet that you'll see it more and more as broadband service widens.

regards,

Charlie Escher</b>
 
Originally posted by prockenklang

Hey Gooseyard,I don't have a problem with you not believing me,or with you and several others on this board making jokes!! I do have a problem however with you insulting me by saying I smoke crack.I have never once tried to insult you during this debate and I feel that your insults are totally un-professional and un-called for.

You're the guy who dissed Peavey and Crate! Talk about insulting....
 
Originally posted by jdombrow
I came across this comment in another discussion forum today:



Interesting viewpoint.

jd

I'd suggest that there are things that can be measured that we can't hear. The frequency and phase resolution of top-notch audio test equipment surpasses that of our hearing by a long shot. In fact, recent AES papers suggest that our ears aren't very adept at picking up phase distortion at all. Quote: "Our ears are tolerant of gross phase distortion." I will concede that there may be things that we can hear that can't be measured, or that we may be measuring the wrong things....

But if the supposed difference these cables make is as dramatic as claimed then it should be fairly easily measured.
 
THE HORSE IS DEAD!!!!!

I would just like to say that I agree with Bob Lee regarding sticking with a properly done DBT. The goal is to eliminate psychologically manipulatable (sp?) factors.

Until that's done, it's all empirical facts (from the engineers), personal subjective opinions, and hoopla.

"Thank you very much."
 
Originally posted by The Cable Guy
Two hundred miles of piping to two hundred feet of piping to the spigot (POINT A) on the side of your house. Different size garden hoses still affect the water flow to your lawn (POINT B). POINT A to POINT B - that's all we're concerned with.

But no more or better water will flow to the "Lawn" (i.e. our amp) if the "Garden Hose" (i.e. our $5 power cable) is already of equal or greater caliber to our "Two Hundred Miles Of Piping" (i.e. the AC supply leading to our wall outlets).

Since most good power cords are of equal or greater quality than the wiring to the average wall socket, the quoted analogy does not apply unless the power cord is of insufficient caliber (i.e. insufficient diameter in our "Garden Hose").
 
Originally posted by The Cable Guy
And another thing, guys. Regardless of what ANY piece of testing equipment tells me, I've never been able to hear a "spec". I use my ears.

I don't need a methodical testing procedure to tell me what my ears will in two seconds.

That's like saying your eyes can see the difference in two identical angles, even though the (properly working) computer program, that can measure them to a billionth of a degree, is telling you...they're identical.

Assuming all things being equal (except the power cord), a highly tuned computer audio analizing program (spectral analasis) is not going to graph the same exact results....unless they are exactly the same.
 
Originally posted by prockenklang
Bob,
Why is it though if I ask you come to another place to "listen" that it becomes a sales demo,yet if we do it at QSC,it becomes a test? I realize that I don't have any fancy testing equipment like you do at QSC,but,with you being a professional in the pro-audio industry,I would think you would jump at the chance to check it out for yourself.

John

Because...Bob correctly realizes that he is human and thus, also susceptible to the power of suggestion.... very much like you.

Unbiased "fancy testing equipment" has no such hangups.

I am really looking forward to the results of an unbiased spectrum analasis between the two power cables.
 
As a qualified statistician I would be very pleased to help design a blinded test of these cables.

Unfortunately it can't be double blind unless you can make two different power cables look identical. Double blind means that the person hearing the results and the person switching the cables does not know which cable is which.

My thought would be that you need to have two or more testers / listeners who will listen to and rate the results. You ought to use one standard test rig with an identical signal going through the rig each time - this could either be a looped signal or a standard test signal. Presumably you would have a some kind of standard signal that covers a variety of frequencies... Then you need to listen to this test signal a number of times (10+?) while switching the cables *randomly* for each listening but making sure that each cable gets used the same number of times (viz. Cheap cable 5 times, Tara Labs cable 5 times). The person switching the cable should not be one of the listeners and if possible should not be visible by the listeners (so that they don't know if that person "switches" between one cable and the same one. i.e. that the same cable is used in two adjacent tests). The listeners decide whether what they are hearing is the Tara Labs cable or the cheaper cable. They don't *have* to rate what they like about the sound etc. Simply A or B will be enough.

Once the ratings have been completed it is a really simple statistical test to test if the listeners are guessing which cable is which and if they can hear a difference.

If you would like to take more in-depth measurements or qualitative measurements, then I'd be happy to provide input to the design and analysis.

Mike
 
Originally posted by MKS
In a blinded test we ran with about 60 secondary education kids, about 90% couldn't taste the difference between Coke (The Real Thing) and a supermarket own brand Cola.

A priori you may have thought that you could... ;)

My parents used to own a nightclub. It was amazing how many people couldn't tell the difference between Coke and 7UP when blindfolded. :eek:
 
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