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Power struggles

smcgov

smcgov

Supporting Member
Mar 12, 2010
815
580
Northshore Mass
#1
this might be long....I'll try to make it as short as possible. I joined a local band that was not very good with one of my neighbors who's an experienced solid guitarist. We were mostly in our 50's and had clashes with song choices so my neighbor quit. I suspected we would never find a decent guitarist but they stumbled upon a local guy who has never played out and is in his 50's, he's really an impressive player but in the band he was maybe a little bit too controlling and wanting to pick the songs and axing songs we'd been doing for a long time...I recoiled initially and kind of butted heads with him and ultimately I left because I didn't feel we were musically compatible. I told the guitarist if he left I would like to get something going wth him. He's the type of guy who learns solos and plays them with passion, plays the correct notes, has great rhythm and fabulous tone.

Anyhoo he eventually left that band and starts band #2 with a diff bass player who eventually left...so he calls me, we happened upon an incredible vocalist, a great keyboard player who sings well, and a really solid drummer. In this band he was really the BL along w/ singer who is a big talent so I just kind of learn the parts, there aren't really many songs I don't like but over time i started to feel some resentment on just a couple of the guys picking all of the songs and most of us are never asked and we don't get a vote. IMO song selection determines the direction your band will take so this is no small deal.
MEANWHILE
I was unemployed and joined another band to make more $...they needed a guitar as well so i had them try out our guitar and they loved him. This band has a really good bunch of players, the BL is the drummer who has been gigging for 30 years and very experienced. As time has gone by, our guitarist has began fighting for what I perceive to be control over songs we're going to play, and this is a trend I have now seen in 3 bands. He is relatively inexperienced but wants to control the direction of the band?! Our BL is a really good drummer, he pays for the rehearsal space and books the gigs. Anyway our guitarist also freaked out and gets very upset when he's trying to talk in practice (which is a lot) and someone is playing their instrument...the other night he shushed me, I was pissed. I've been playing for 30 years and have never in my life been shushed by a bandmate. I wasn't playing loud enough to affect anything. IMO he has control issues and can't seem to stop it. He also sent out an email that if we don't change our name at our next gig he would not play another gig with the "old" name. He's a dream guitar player but I think our drummer is more important to the band and the drummer and keys have had enough of the guy...and now...I considered him a friend but don't think I can handle any more of the controlling behavior. Keep in mind the guitarist does care about the quality of the band and wants it to be great, but the chip on the shoulder thing is wearing thin. Our drummer told me that guitarist is acting childish and if he continues he will get a reputation and people will not want to play with him after a while.

Anyway I guess I'm wondering if any of you have been through this and if I'm being too intolerant of this guys.
 
#2
Kind of didn't read all of this but why did you need to go through 3 bands with that guitar player, when he was wa like that in the first band you played with him?.

As for songs, it's very hard for a non-singing bass player to influence the song list. Singers and melody instrument players tend to naturally have major input to song selections, IME.
 
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#5
smcgov said:
this might be long....I'll try to make it as short as possible. I joined a local band that was not very good with one of my neighbors who's an experienced solid guitarist. We were mostly in our 50's and had clashes with song choices so my neighbor quit. I suspected we would never find a decent guitarist but they stumbled upon a local guy who has never played out and is in his 50's, he's really an impressive player but in the band he was maybe a little bit too controlling and wanting to pick the songs and axing songs we'd been doing for a long time...I recoiled initially and kind of butted heads with him and ultimately I left because I didn't feel we were musically compatible. I told the guitarist if he left I would like to get something going wth him. He's the type of guy who learns solos and plays them with passion, plays the correct notes, has great rhythm and fabulous tone.

Anyhoo he eventually left that band and starts band #2 with a diff bass player who eventually left...so he calls me, we happened upon an incredible vocalist, a great keyboard player who sings well, and a really solid drummer. In this band he was really the BL along w/ singer who is a big talent so I just kind of learn the parts, there aren't really many songs I don't like but over time i started to feel some resentment on just a couple of the guys picking all of the songs and most of us are never asked and we don't get a vote. IMO song selection determines the direction your band will take so this is no small deal.
MEANWHILE
I was unemployed and joined another band to make more $...they needed a guitar as well so i had them try out our guitar and they loved him. This band has a really good bunch of players, the BL is the drummer who has been gigging for 30 years and very experienced. As time has gone by, our guitarist has began fighting for what I perceive to be control over songs we're going to play, and this is a trend I have now seen in 3 bands. He is relatively inexperienced but wants to control the direction of the band?! Our BL is a really good drummer, he pays for the rehearsal space and books the gigs. Anyway our guitarist also freaked out and gets very upset when he's trying to talk in practice (which is a lot) and someone is playing their instrument...the other night he shushed me, I was pissed. I've been playing for 30 years and have never in my life been shushed by a bandmate. I wasn't playing loud enough to affect anything. IMO he has control issues and can't seem to stop it. He also sent out an email that if we don't change our name at our next gig he would not play another gig with the "old" name. He's a dream guitar player but I think our drummer is more important to the band and the drummer and keys have had enough of the guy...and now...I considered him a friend but don't think I can handle any more of the controlling behavior. Keep in mind the guitarist does care about the quality of the band and wants it to be great, but the chip on the shoulder thing is wearing thin. Our drummer told me that guitarist is acting childish and if he continues he will get a reputation and people will not want to play with him after a while.

Anyway I guess I'm wondering if any of you have been through this and if I'm being too intolerant of this guys.
Click to expand...
Talk to the guy. See if he can grow up. Tell him he needs to behave as well as he plays. Je can't make a band by yourself.
 
#6
oldrocker said:
Oh, and do you always noodle on the bass between songs while people are trying to talk?
Click to expand...

no, I don't always noodle...but I do noodle occasionally, because I'm there to play, not to listen to him yammer about what the correct chords are, because I already know what they are, because I did my homework.....every musician i know noodles...it's statistically impossible not to "noodle" when this guy is talking, because he talks way too much....so I see where you're trying to go, but 3 out of the 5 members want to can him, and nobody gives a rats about noodling.
 
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#7
smcgov said:
no, I don't always noodle...but I do noodle occasionally, because I'm there to play, not to listen to him yammer about what the correct chords are, because I already know what they are, because I did my homework.....every musician i know noodles...it's statistically impossible not to "noodle" when this guy is talking, because he talks way too much....so I see where you're trying to go, but 3 out of the 5 members want to can him, and nobody gives a rats about noodling.
Click to expand...
Noodling and practicing...at home.

For your rehearsal, I think you're being passive-aggressive instead of speaking up and taking a stand. Seems like he may be the grown up. :yawn:
 
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#10
Too long…..

Don’t play when people are trying to talk, even if they talk a lot. I’ve done more than “shush” people. More like “STFU before I jam that noodle-machine up your f’ing etc..”

I was reading a post from another thread and this comment made in passing struck me as a fantastic juxtaposition to these types of threads: “….as anyone who has had the displeasure of being shelled would know….”.

Are you being shelled? Or are you for some reason associating with a prima-dona guitarist? There’s a reason he is 50, can play well but has never played out. Lose him.
 
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#11
oldrocker said:
Kind of didn't read all of this but why did you need to go through 3 bands with that guitar player, when he was wa like that in the first band you played with him?
Click to expand...

This. I had to read the OP twice to make sure it was all the same guitarist. He is who he is, so unless he's the BL, there's gonna be drama with him. Probably gonna be drama anyway. Sounds like you've found a good band that needs to find a new guitarist.

oldrocker said:
Oh, and do you always noodle on the bass between songs while people are trying to talk?
Click to expand...

And this. Noodling when others are working out parts is rude and unprofessional, period. No excuses.
 
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#13
I get it. He sounds like the music comes first. He's what I call "the Artist type". It's what I believe has propelled him to be such a great guitar player. Unfortunately, of all the musicians I've worked with in the last 6 years (probably about 50 if you include a big band, subs, and including the palette of 10 or so players I work with regularly), it's these artist types that cause the most problems. We get "seduced" by their tone and musicianship, and they tend to use it to control the band -- even at times, trying to fire their experienced band leaders to get their way. They gut repertoire, make unreasonable, egocentric demands, and they can be temperamental. Of all the musicians I've played with in the last 6 years, I've only fired one of them -- and he was an Artist type.

The Artist types are in contrast to the Employee type (just shows up and wants to be paid, but won't do promotion or sales), or the entrepreneurial type (will do sales and promotion). These guys put less emphasis on song selection, musical quality, bitching about other player's musicianship etcetera than Artists. While musical quality is important (remember, the Hang, Money and Music triology), it's not everything, and they are easier to get along with than the Artist types.

The only musician I've ever fired in the last 6 years was an Artist type. And his behavior was very similar to what you describe in the OP.
My musical fulfilment went way up, and way off the charts (in a good way), after I fired that Artist type -- after he tried to fire me from my own band. We actually found other players who, if you tallied up personality, fit, attitude, and musicianship, were better than the Artist.

I believe in working with people, and retaining talent. Sometimes too much, I have been told. But in this case, I think the sooner you cut ties with this guy, the better. He will continue to try to control the band, make demands, etcetera, until he gets his own way. You have a pattern here, and this guy is nothing but trouble.

The only way I see this working is if HE is the band leader, and everyone around him speaks Sheepese (puts their head down and obeys). But in return for giving up my free agency this way, I'd expect this guy to fill my schedule with paid gigs. You can be the judge of whether he's capable of that. He doesn't have a track record, and so the only indicator is what he does for a living -- is he in Sales and Marketing, or have a long stint in sales in his career somewhere? Did he own a business? You want your band leader to be an entrepreneurial type.

If not, I wouldn't even consider joining with him on the Sheep model of band organization and followership. And I think your band should take him up on his offer to quit, since you aren't willing to change the band name.

He needs his arse fired so he can learn some humility and that having a good band is more than just about the music -- it's about relationships, business, paid gigs, co-missioning (helping people achieve their own goals to the extent possible, without sacrificing the band leaders goals). It sounds like you have an experienced BL who may have gigs, so I think this Artist type might learn something after he gets fired and sees the band is out making money without him.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I know these guys - great musicians, but demanding, controlling, who are not worth the trouble.

Some of you have questioned my orientation process for prospective musicians, but this is a case in point. This Artist type of guitarist wouldn't have made it through the orientation in my own groups. He would have opted out of the band after hearing how things work. This is because I deal with how we select repertoire in orientation -- the band members suggest songs based on certain criteria I give, and I select from their suggestions. That way we strike a balance between personal interests and what the band needs (songs that are easily subbed, well charted, fit the genre). You'd be surprised how well it works, provided you have good criteria for people to use as filters for their own ideas. This guy probably would have had none of that. With this process, I've been exposed to really good songs I didn't know existed, only because I directed their brain power in the right direction and retained the ultimate say in what goes on the set list. And people feel heard as a result.

For the few who pay lip service to the orientation and then get into the band and then try to take over, the BL is fully justified in warning them to abide by the norms set in the orientation. And if they don't, you can say "you knew this was the way it works before you joined -- why are you questioning it now??". Regardless of what he says, you are justified in telling the guy to make a choice -- either get with the program or go into a second or third call position -- and if he doesn't like that, then quit altogether.

It underscores the need to have 2nd and 3rd and 4th call musicians in your depth chart. This is so when guys like this start throwing tantrums, you can release the guy from his first call position, and let one of the other guys in the depth chart take over. With a solid depth chart, problem musicians don't stop the band -- it clicks on without them, barely missing a beat.
 
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#14
Common theme in band management threads o' woe: "I'm in a band with a *great* [guitarist/drummer/trombonist/singer], but s/he can't [play in tune, play in time, play the same chord sequence twice, play in front of a crowd, play nicely with others, play at anything but dingo-deafening volumes...]. It's unbearable and it's ruining the band, but the dude's really such a great player. Whaddoido?"

A. Quit
B. Quit bringing my musically problematic friends from one band to another
C. Communicate what I need, clearly and up front
D. Fire the drummer
E. Sleep with the drummer's girlfriend, and then fire the drummer
E. Carrots

A good bandmate can do everything the gig requires to be successful and sustainable. If you don't have good bandmates, get them. (Then, fire the drummer.)
 
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#15
I've said it before, and I'm sure to say it again.....

Regardless of how great of a musician the guy might be, these interpersonal exchanges that marginalize other people's opinions rarely have anything to do the music side of things. It's almost always a character flaw for lack of a better term. It's the one kid who can't play nice with the other kids in the sand box, because it's his sandbox and he makes the rules in his sandbox.

The truly great musicians teach, lead, and make the guys around them better. At least the ones I've been around have. There is huge, huge difference between being a demanding musician, and being an intolerable controlling pri!ck in a cover band. Chances are this guy has cycled through a ton of bands, or musicians in his own projects because he's incapable of treating other adults with respect in the group setting. I've seen a million of them. If they were so great, they wouldn't be cobbing together top 40 bands in the garage to play down at the local dive on Saturday.

I've played with some demanding people. They made me a better musician, and more focused. Demand and control are not the same thing.
 
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#16
And one last point. IME I've also found that guys who are inflexible on the song list are usually one trick ponies, or just not interested in learning anything new. They pick stuff they like, and that's already in their wheelhouse as a player. No heavy lifting required. If they allow others to pick songs that may challenge them, then they will either have to learn some new technique or even worse - play a song poorly and expose that they aren't a virtuoso!

This is another "I've seen it million times" cliche, especially from aging rock guitar players. They are stuck playing the same 5 or 6 licks that get you through 85% of the tunes they learned in their formative years. They are great at said licks, and will function highly in that scenario. However ask them to learn something outside of that little window - forget it. Remember, it's their sandbox.
 
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#18
IMHO a Band is not a Democracy. There should be jobs associated with the Band. The BL has veto power. A Band should have a Musical Director (not a tyrant). Singers are a problem and a blessing. You need those voices but everything can't be about them especially if it's a Band. If they want to be the star of the show let them get a gig as themselves and the Band can be the backup for that Gig. But when THE BAND plays it's what THE BAND plays. Prima Donna Musicians are a no go. Like Snoop said, Drop it like it's hot. Fire the Guitarist and see if you'll still be friends. I like to keep things business casual. That is I don't want too many gigs with Friends it's taxing. I prefer to play with Professional Associates on a Friendly Basis. I purposely Free Lance so I approach all situations like it's a Job. That way those who are control freaks can control all they want. I'll come in play the music even if I don't like it, get paid and go home. One person can destroy a Band. Don't let him. Let Dude go, and get someone else you can work with and that will work with you. Even if they don't play as well. I never got into the Musician Idolatry thing. If you can play well, good for you. This is only part of the equation.
 
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#19
I agree with @PauFerro .

In your OP you are defining the problem of guitar player wanting to select all or most of the songs and control the direction of the band.

You either need to sit down and communicate to him that HE is NOT the ONLY person in the band and HIS tastes in music do not reflect the band as a whole. --Good luck with that. IME guys with this issue just don't want to understand that other people have different tastes or points of view.

OR you work with the BL and collaborate to come up with a SYSTEM of song selection that fits an agreed-upon defined direction for the band. And either the guitarist gets with that program or doesn't.
 

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