Powered cabs / power amps

[hooky_marr]

I'm puzzled as to why there aren't more of these, particularly as a good number of players are moving to preamp pedal DIs / modelers, and as class D amps offer significant space and weight savings.

Even in the pro audio space, almost nobody is making a basic 1U rack power amp suitable for a bass rig anymore. Demeter have the Minnie, which is a tad pricey, and Orange make a small power amp aimed at pedal preamp users, and that's all.

Phil Jones Bass used to make powered cabs, but no longer. Outside the PA space, there's the Blackstar Unity 250ACT (15"), Wayne Jones' stuff, and… everything else seems rare or out of production.

I know amp makers know their markets, but one would think it'd be relatively easy to create a drop-in "power amp only" module for most combo amps, especially the ones with the amp mounted top rear.

(@agedhorse if you care to comment? Is this a niche market or a growing one?)

 

[Smokey P]

I deeply agree, luckily I've been seeing more sumos and straight aheads in the classifieds but I would love for someone to start mass producing a 300 watt class D power amp that is under 5lbs. Basically id take a tc bam200 with just a volume knob.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I talked to GK on the phone last week and production of their MBP powered cabs is supposed to restart, when they have the available parts, sometime mid-year or earlier. RAG also said the same in a thread last fall.

 

[JimChjones]

Most powered speakers seem to use "plate amps".

The (uneducated) impression I've gained is that cooling design is a bit of a challenge with 1U form factor. I remember seeing a recommendation that 1U servers in server rooms should be spaced 1U apart for cooling reasons, which I thought rather defeated the object!

 

[gtirard]

agedhorse already explained in another thread that the market is not big enough, because of the costs of R&D + certification process.

Class D amps are affordable, you can use one only for its power section, either by plugging in the instrument input and setting the EQ knobs flat, or by plugging in the return connector of the effect loop.

But I agree we should see more power cabs and power amps offerings.

 

[seamonkey]

Many powered PA/FOH cabs work great for bass. If more even bass is needed, then a single powered subwoofer can be added to work in tandem with several PA/FOH cabs.

The trend is lower stage volume and more to DI to PA/FOH. Getting a PS/FOH powered cab can be used for both as a personal monitor, and/or as part of the FOH solution. IEMs are also the trend with personal monitor mixes. You'll play like you can actually hear yourself these days.

 

[agedhorse]

agedhorse already explained in another thread that the market is not big enough, because of the costs of R&D + certification process.

Class D amps are affordable, you can use one only for its power section, either by plugging in the instrument input and setting the EQ knobs flat, or by plugging in the return connector of the effect loop.

But I agree we should see more power cabs and power amps offerings.

Correct, at this point the economies of scale simply aren't there.

Most bass amps are pretty flat through the aux in or effects return. Most bass amps are not very flat through the instrument input however as the amp's voicing is present.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Correct, at this point the economies of scale simply aren't there.

Most bass amps are pretty flat through the aux in or effects return. Most bass amps are not very flat through the instrument input however as the amp's voicing is present.

I have a question about this, if you don't mind weighing in. I see people say they run an external preamp through an amp's instrument input and then set the amp's preamp to flat. Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't doing that essentially negate the tone shaping work done by the external preamp?

 

[bucephylus]

Correct, at this point the economies of scale simply aren't there.

Most bass amps are pretty flat through the aux in or effects return. Most bass amps are not very flat through the instrument input however as the amp's voicing is present.

For those who may not get this point, Andy just explained that many of the Class D amps are Class D power amps, which happen to have a preamp built into them. So, pedalboard preamps can go right in through the Aux In / Efx return. I have the Demeter Minnie, and it works really well; but, honestly many of the 800W Class D amps would be equally great.

 

[Passinwind]

I deeply agree, luckily I've been seeing more sumos and straight aheads in the classifieds but I would love for someone to start mass producing a 300 watt class D power amp that is under 5lbs. Basically id take a tc bam200 with just a volume knob.

How much extra would you be willing to pay for that?

 

[agedhorse]

I have a question about this, if you don't mind weighing in. I see people say they run an external preamp through an amp's instrument input and then set the amp's preamp to flat. Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't doing that essentially negate the tone shaping work done by the external preamp?

No, even with the tone controls set "flat", there is still inherent voicing present. Often this is significant.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

No, even with the tone controls set "flat", there is still inherent voicing present. Often this is significant.

Thanks - I've often wondered about the cumulative effect of stacking preamps.

 

[moon-bass]

Two of my favorites for this purpose are the quilter BB800 and GR Bass One line (various wattages) - they even have a "pure" button that removes all of the preamp voicing.

I never understood the draw of powered speakers, other than wanting an all in one unit for use with a modeler or external preamp. I always wanted to make my speakers as light as possible. Plus, I would think servicing might be problematic, etc. But to each their own, I can understand why some ppl might like them.

 

[Michedelic]

I have a question about this, if you don't mind weighing in. I see people say they run an external preamp through an amp's instrument input and then set the amp's preamp to flat. Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't doing that essentially negate the tone shaping work done by the external preamp?

Not at all…I see a preamp as an additional tone sculpting device for the instrument, then when that gets passed on to the amp, those tone controls cope with the quirks of the particular stage or room for the evening, independent of what may or may not be in the PA.

 

[agedhorse]

Thanks - I've often wondered about the cumulative effect of stacking preamps.

Not at all…I see a preamp as an additional tone sculpting device for the instrument, then when that gets passed on to the amp, those tone controls cope with the quirks of the particular stage or room for the evening, independent of what may or may not be in the PA.

The effect of stacking preamps depends on the preamps. Generally it's not a good idea because if for example both preamps have an inherent mid scoop (a common voicing), than decreasing the midrange "twice" can result in a very mid shy voicing.

 

[moon-bass]

Not at all…I see a preamp as an additional tone sculpting device for the instrument, then when that gets passed on to the amp, those tone controls cope with the quirks of the particular stage or room for the evening, independent of what may or may not be in the PA.

Like @agedhorse said, it entirely depends on the preamp. On my large board, I have five preamps, but I use them for different purposes (some are tone shaping and some are for OD/drive). I particularly like pairing a Fender TMB style preamp with and active pre with a parametric EQ - currently using a Grace Alix with an SIB FatDrive.

 

[pbassnut]

I'm puzzled as to why there aren't more of these, particularly as a good number of players are moving to preamp pedal DIs / modelers, and as class D amps offer significant space and weight savings.

Even in the pro audio space, almost nobody is making a basic 1U rack power amp suitable for a bass rig anymore. Demeter have the Minnie, which is a tad pricey, and Orange make a small power amp aimed at pedal preamp users, and that's all.

Phil Jones Bass used to make powered cabs, but no longer. Outside the PA space, there's the Blackstar Unity 250ACT (15"), Wayne Jones' stuff, and… everything else seems rare or out of production.

I know amp makers know their markets, but one would think it'd be relatively easy to create a drop-in "power amp only" module for most combo amps, especially the ones with the amp mounted top rear.

(@agedhorse if you care to comment? Is this a niche market or a growing one?)

There are a fair number of good quality bass combo amps that have effects return, poweramp in, line in, or aux in patch points where you can bypass the native preamp with your rack mount or pedal preamp which, in effect, turns it into a powered speaker.

 

[Smokey P]

How much extra would you be willing to pay for that?

Good question! If we are talking a TC electronics version like in my hypothetical then I'd basically pay the same as for the one with the preamp built in, maybe a little more. Those go new for about 180 so yeah I'd pay about that. That's not much less than the Jay Genz Straight ahead goes for and that's 500 watts. I think that price point is pretty fair, straight ahead just can't mass produce them like say ampeg or fender could.

tho I do understand that it isn't just as simple as take the knobs off an already existing micro-amp and charge the same or even less for it (less features, less dough) cause the manufacture would have to go thru the already mentioned R&D and safety cert stuff to mass produce it which sounds like a costly process for the market share that would want it….I just really want it!

 

[Smokey P]

Essentially just want a company to do what fender/SWR did with the amplite…it was ahead of its time and they don't go for cheap, because folks like them and are looking for them!

 

[Michedelic]

The effect of stacking preamps depends on the preamps. Generally it's not a good idea because if for example both preamps have an inherent mid scoop (a common voicing), than decreasing the midrange "twice" can result in a very mid shy voicing.

Like @agedhorse said, it entirely depends on the preamp. On my large board, I have five preamps, but I use them for different purposes (some are tone shaping and some are for OD/drive). I particularly like pairing a Fender TMB style preamp with and active pre with a parametric EQ - currently using a Grace Alix with an SIB FatDrive.

I use a Radial Bassbone, original version, primarily as a nerve center/signal router on my pedalboard; I like the fact that it has the effects loop(missing on many pedal pre's), before the xlr/DI, and the dual switchable imputs, for the occasion where I have fretted/fretless. The levels of the two instruments are balanced, and with very judicious EQ tweaking, only as needed. I don't overdrive the input of the amp with any kind of dimed output on the pre, I've got stomps for that. Now, if I had an onboard preamp with some sort of sweepable mid, or active EQ in my bass, doesn't that potentially(if misused)thwart/fight the amp's tone controls? Wouldn't that be the same thing as a box?