It's true. I once found the god Thor in the back of an abandoned chevy Malibu I was going to sleep in one night.
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Pray for Christopher Hitchens
- Thread starter bassrique
- Start date
It's true. I once found the god Thor in the back of an abandoned chevy Malibu I was going to sleep in one night.
Actually, what they find is an excuse to focus on the task at hand rather than running away, or soiling their drawers
And as you so succinctly pointed out, they usually forget about it as quickly as they thought of it. To my way of thinking that is more of a quick rental than a true finding.
To me finding implies coming in to the light after wandering aimlessly in the darkness, not asking for a quick ray of sunshine so you don't stub your toe in a rough patch of road, then going right back to the same old wandering in the dark.
As for my time spent in foxholes, it's minimal. I was a recon Marine so the majority of my combat experience was snooping and pooping in the bad guy's back yard. We got to do some ambushing and run and gun stuff, but sitting in a hole waiting for some bad guy was never something I did a lot of. In the little time I did spend in a foxhole, I heard as many "oh s*!ts" as I did "dear gods" so I tend to take all that finding God in a foxhole talk with a very healthy grain of salt. In fairness, I once found a cute little Korean girl in a foxhole while training with the Korean Marines, but I've never found anything else but boredom and a lot of anxious anticipation.
My point was serious religious conversions as some experience when they find themselves edging ever closer to the abyss with the certainty they are going over the edge in the near future are not the stuff made in foxholes. People do a lot of goofy stuff when they are afraid and striking deals with the almighty pretty much tops that list, but as you pointed out, those deals are not made in earnest which is why I said what I did originally.
It's easy to make a deal you have no intention of honoring, it's a whole nother kettle of fish to stick to that deal, and quite frankly, bargaining with God in the heat of the moment as a way to screw up some additional courage is not finding God in any shape, form, or fashion. it just don't happen in foxholes to the degree some would have others believe.
My point was NOT that they stick to the sudden religious "finding", just that how strangely someone non-religious (like me) will appeal to a higher power when faced with (they think) imminent death in combat---even though 99.99% don't "honor the bargain" when its over and they survived. I think we agree on the basics here. I am just remarking that yes indeed, I have heard many exclamations appealing to a higher power--its just blurted out....until its over. And yes, quite often its only cuss words you hear. But there have been many times when I've laid out my grenades, straightened the pins and desperately said something about hoping a higher power assists getting me through this as I awaited them charging in (Charlie could really suck sometimes). Other times its just gritting the teeth and cussing.
Thinking back I have to say: As a doorgunner it was always cussing. As a regular grunt, mostly cussing, gritting and an occasional call on higher power--especially under prolonged mortars or something, and as a Ranger it was muttered cussing or nothing at all.
But "God" is often referred to in a combat scenario even if without sincerity the majority of the time. And that's the point I meant. That even an atheist, when in danger of dying, can do the same plea. Does not mean much other than humans realize at times nothing they will do can save their ass, so they think just maybe.......
bongomania
Commercial User
Minor digression--I was raised strictly atheist, and I've tried often as an adult to find some sort of faith/spirituality/community of philosophy/religion, and every time it eventually becomes clear that a sane, non-desperate person cannot create faith out of nothing.
By that I mean, the genie is out of the bottle. I already know that people mostly believe in religion because they were taught it by their parents or community; and I already know that faith requires blind acceptance of things that cannot be measured, demonstrated, or supported by logic.
So it is impossible for me, so long as I am sane and not in a state of panic, to actually believe anything religious.
Again, I've tried! I wanted to see what I was missing (if anything), and I wanted to step out of the dogma of atheism--itself a kind of religion for some people. But even with an open mind and a welcoming heart, I just could not get myself to believe in the things that religious people take on faith.
By that I mean, the genie is out of the bottle. I already know that people mostly believe in religion because they were taught it by their parents or community; and I already know that faith requires blind acceptance of things that cannot be measured, demonstrated, or supported by logic.
So it is impossible for me, so long as I am sane and not in a state of panic, to actually believe anything religious.
Again, I've tried! I wanted to see what I was missing (if anything), and I wanted to step out of the dogma of atheism--itself a kind of religion for some people. But even with an open mind and a welcoming heart, I just could not get myself to believe in the things that religious people take on faith.
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
+1
I've tried to give religion a shot a few times but it's never caught on. I also can't stand the hypocrisy that, as an outsider, I see happen all the time in regards to many people of faith and their doctrines.
Trying to reply to this in a constructive way and stay within the rules...mods if I get it wrong please delete this post.
I have never seen a conclusive proof that God exists. I have never seen a conclusive proof that God does not exist.
I have seen thought provoking arguments in support of both premises, but nothing conclusive.
So I either stay agnostic or jump to one side or the other on the basis of my best guess and faith.
I jumped to the side of Christianity, because I find the proposition that the world "just happened" unlikely, and because in general I find deep truth in the Christian message. It doesn't mean I don't have doubts at times, or that I don't struggle with aspects of the Christian teaching.
As musicians, we all understand that you cannot prove the beauty of music, but we can all get it, and not everyone does. And we all struggle with some styles of music.
I participate in my local church, even though I disagree with some aspects of their culture and teaching, as a way to mix with and learn from other believers.
And I have the greatest respect for those who reach a different conclusion - either a different "brand" of God or the belief that God does not exist. A respect that I admit is not offered by all Christians, but is also not offered by some atheists.
As for hypocrisy, welcome to the human race. The church is no different to any other human organization, nor would I expect it to be.
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
Insert: any band that I've tried to explore on good references from respected sources yet am unable to find the promised higher power. Tool may be god to some, but I cannot find their spirit within my soul no matter how much I open it up unto them. I'm a Tool agnostic, but carry myself as a Tool atheist. I cannot prove that they don't rock, heavily, just as none have yet proven to me that they do indeed rock, heavily.
See also: my opinions on Radiohead.
Trying to reply to this in a constructive way and stay within the rules...mods if I get it wrong please delete this post.
I have never seen a conclusive proof that God exists. I have never seen a conclusive proof that God does not exist.
I have seen thought provoking arguments in support of both premises, but nothing conclusive.
So I either stay agnostic or jump to one side or the other on the basis of my best guess and faith.
I jumped to the side of Christianity, because I find the proposition that the world "just happened" unlikely, and because in general I find deep truth in the Christian message. It doesn't mean I don't have doubts at times, or that I don't struggle with aspects of the Christian teaching.
As musicians, we all understand that you cannot prove the beauty of music, but we can all get it, and not everyone does. And we all struggle with some styles of music.
I participate in my local church, even though I disagree with some aspects of their culture and teaching, as a way to mix with and learn from other believers.
And I have the greatest respect for those who reach a different conclusion - either a different "brand" of God or the belief that God does not exist. A respect that I admit is not offered by all Christians, but is also not offered by some atheists.
As for hypocrisy, welcome to the human race. The church is no different to any other human organization, nor would I expect it to be.
That's very true. I can't argue with that at all. There is a reason why I have more issue with it in regards to religious people, but me going into it would violate TOS.
But for what it's worth, even though I'm not religious I am incredibly spiritual.
+1 on not getting Radiohead.
I only like one song of theirs and it's Idiotique off of the Kid A album.
Check out pablo honey b-sides for radiohead. And check out the song ticks and leeches from tool.
Everyone says that, but I never cared for it. Kid A isn't bad, but Radiohead just isn't my cup of tea overall.
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
When confronted with an atheist, many believers will insist that they're just not educated enough on the glories of god, quote Bible verses, and do what they can to convert them. Their faith is such a big, satisfying part of their lives, how can they allow others to miss out on it?
Commiseration from fellow atheists is often the only solace available.
jmattbassplaya said:
They're not my favorite act, but I got OK Computer listened to it for awhile and almost completely forgot about it until easy star all stars released 'radiodread'. It made me revisit the album all fall back in love with it.
slobake
resident ... something
A lot of good comments and thoughts here. There are some who are religious and some who are not who think that religion should be some sort of behaviour mod system. As for me I doubt I could change anyone's mind and I know I couldn't change anyone's heart. I rememeber seeing a t-shirt during the Vietnam war that said "Kill them all and let God sort them out." Lately I have been thinking "Love them all and let God do the rest."
I have an awesome relationship with Jesus but I hate religion. I once read " Religion is what is left when the Holy Sprit leaves the church." Just following a set of rules is futile and leads to bitterness, hypocricy and dissulionment. Read Ecclasiastes and see what happened to Solomon.
Yes, there is a lot of Christians who are hypocrites, and I include myself in that list. If you are looking for something without hypocricy don't look in churches. On the other hand I have been hard pressed to find any group of people without hypocricy. (or good spelling LOL).
I can't convert anyone nor do I try, I just do my best to follow Jesus and love everyone. Sometimes I blow it big time and lose more temper and say things I regeret. I do things I have no business attempting like trying to "fix" people.
People are not stupid, they now if your attention to them is about manipulation, as in "I'm going to be your friend and the first chance I get I'm going to do the sinners prayer with you." Forget all that, people in this world are starving for true love and community, give them that and let God do the rest.
In the period the book of Acts was written Nero was doing things like using christians as human candles at his garden parties. It was not a good time to be a follower of "the way" as they used to call it. But the church was growing at and amazing rate despite all of the persecution. I believe it is because Christians where known a gentle kind people who would take in anyone who needed help.
Today because of a few loud mouths who get all the press Christians are known for what they hate not for what they love.
Many of us love God and love all people as He told us to do. Or at least try to.
I have an awesome relationship with Jesus but I hate religion. I once read " Religion is what is left when the Holy Sprit leaves the church." Just following a set of rules is futile and leads to bitterness, hypocricy and dissulionment. Read Ecclasiastes and see what happened to Solomon.
Yes, there is a lot of Christians who are hypocrites, and I include myself in that list. If you are looking for something without hypocricy don't look in churches. On the other hand I have been hard pressed to find any group of people without hypocricy. (or good spelling LOL).
I can't convert anyone nor do I try, I just do my best to follow Jesus and love everyone. Sometimes I blow it big time and lose more temper and say things I regeret. I do things I have no business attempting like trying to "fix" people.
People are not stupid, they now if your attention to them is about manipulation, as in "I'm going to be your friend and the first chance I get I'm going to do the sinners prayer with you." Forget all that, people in this world are starving for true love and community, give them that and let God do the rest.
In the period the book of Acts was written Nero was doing things like using christians as human candles at his garden parties. It was not a good time to be a follower of "the way" as they used to call it. But the church was growing at and amazing rate despite all of the persecution. I believe it is because Christians where known a gentle kind people who would take in anyone who needed help.
Today because of a few loud mouths who get all the press Christians are known for what they hate not for what they love.
Many of us love God and love all people as He told us to do. Or at least try to.
I really like Hitchens. He is such a good speaker and debater.
I wish him well and he'll be in my thoughts, but since I am a person who does not believe in the christian god, I will not pray for him.
I wish him well and he'll be in my thoughts, but since I am a person who does not believe in the christian god, I will not pray for him.
