Pull ALL the watts

[MuzikMan]

Here’s another question; what’s your point? Why do you care if people have a fixation on maximum watts?
Do you suffer from “little amp syndrome”?

I care because it seems possible that marketing has skewed the truth. My thought has nothing to do with how many watts the players rig is, it's about letting people believe that it is necessary to get as many watts as possible at all times, regardless of rig size. People are spending money needlessly, and sometimes going through great lengths to achieve something that is unnessessary. I don't like to see people get burned .

BTW I have a 1500 watt rig .

 

[lomo]

IME there are some (very) limited scenarios where "milking one's watts" makes a difference. In my case, wanting to use my 300 watt (into 4 Ohms) head WITHOUT lugging multiple cabs or any box over 50 lbs means that with a 15-6 that CAN handle all 300 watts, 300 at 4 is significantly better than 165 at 8.

On the other hand, I fully agree that in the vast majority of cases, there's a silly focus on watts and not enough on what's more relevant.

 

[MuzikMan]

IME there are some (very) limited scenarios where "milking one's watts" makes a difference. In my case, wanting to use my 300 watt (into 4 Ohms) head WITHOUT lugging multiple cabs or any box over 50 lbs means that with a 15-6 that CAN handle all 300 watts, 300 at 4 is significantly better than 165 at 8.

On the other hand, I fully agree that in the vast majority of cases, there's a silly focus on watts and not enough on what's more relevant.

I submit that the same cab given 300 watts instead of 165 watts will NOT produce anything of significance.

 

[Plstrns]

I submit that the same cab given 300 watts instead of 165 watts will NOT produce anything of significance.

3 db is significant in a band setting.

 

[MuzikMan]

3 db is significant in a band setting.

You are assuming that the cab can do anything useful with those extra watts. In many cases there is a less than 1/1 ratio of watts to volume, especially as the cab gets closer to its maximum handling.

 

[jaywa]

Well then you're really also getting back to that age-old debate about how much of the volume boost can be attributed to increased wattage vs. the increased surface area of a 2nd cabinet (i.e., more drivers).

 

[MuzikMan]

Well then you're really also getting back to that age-old debate about how much of the volume boost can be attributed to increased wattage vs. the increased surface area of a 2nd cabinet (i.e., more drivers).

That is certainly a big part of the equation.

 

[Plstrns]

You are assuming that the cab can do anything useful with those extra watts. In many cases there is a less than 1/1 ratio of watts to volume, especially as the cab gets closer to its maximum handling.

A fEarful 15/6 is excursion limited @ 800w. it gets louder!

 

[MuzikMan]

A fEarful 15/6 is excursion limited @ 800w. it gets louder!

That works! For the point of this discussion would you say that is a typical scenario? Are the people who are asking what 4 ohm drivers they should stick in their 8 ohm box using a fEARful or anything equivalent?

 

[Plstrns]

No, it's not typical. If manufacturers would stop rating their cabs at their thermal limits, buyers wouldn't be as concerned about power when it won't help.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Watts do matter to a certain point. All things equal, play through a 250 watt version of a head and then play through a 1500 watt version of the same head. You will notice a difference in headroom and volume (assuming your total speaker configuration can take more than 250 watts).

However, the extra output you get from a solid-state amp when plugged into a 4-ohm cabinet as opposed to the same cab in an 8-ohm format is negligible, especially if it's a higher watt amp to being with.

Adding speakers is the easiest way to add volume. ...well, of course that depends on what you define as "easy." More speakers means more of a PITA for load-in and load-out.

 

[rpsands]

The grain of truth is that it DOES make a difference to have the voltage gain from 4 ohms if:

1) You're either not loud enough with the spl generated at 8 ohms, or are having dynamics squashed by running out of headroom

AND

2) Your cabinet has displacement available to make use of additional watts

AND

3) Your cabinet is not wasting the extra watts as power compression

It's very rare that all of those circumstances are true.

 

[CpTCrunch]

This is an epidemic of mythic proportions !!! However, like all myths, there must be a grain of truth in there somewhere. What do you supppose is that grain of truth?

Some woofer/cab combos respond very well to additional wattage/voltage. Some really don't...

While I agree adding additional efficient cabs is more often than not the better route, there are situations where a simple cab rewire can give you that little boost you're looking for.

Sometimes its worth it, but most of the time its not...

 

[edbass]

BTW I have a 1500 watt rig .

Hmmm… I see that you yourself run your Carvin DCM1540L at minimum load/max output, or at least that’s the figure you use to describe your OWN rig. If all of these less than enlightened “max power” posters are deserving of your wrath for using all of their amps… Why do YOU do it?
Seems a little hypocritical to me…

I care because it seems possible that marketing has skewed the truth. My thought has nothing to do with how many watts the players rig is, it's about letting people believe that it is necessary to get as many watts as possible at all times, regardless of rig size.

Well don’t just throw it out there, name names! Who’s marketing? What manufacturer says you MUST, or even SHOULD run their amps at minimum load to sound best, or that it’s better that way? I’m not saying that none do/have in the past, I’m saying I don’t know of any personally. Enlighten me!

Although it generally isn’t necessary, and I don’t like to personally use my power amps at minimum rated load, and only do when it’s a no other option situation, shouldn’t an amp comfortably do what the manufacturer rates it to do?
I don’t see the benefit of running an amp rated for 2 ohms at 2 ohms at all times, but I’m not sure what the problem is. Yes it’s usually extraneous, no it doesn’t generally make anything sound better or louder (excepting of course that often lower loads are the result of more speaker cabs which indeed does add something) to run at minimum load vs running at higher impedance.
BUT… I guess I’m missing whatever point you are trying to make.

Why are you getting your panties all wadded up? What does it hurt to run an amp at its manufacturers minimum load rating? If a player chooses to run max, even if they do it just to brag about “watts”, who cares?
On the other hand; if you are saying that the ratings manufacturers are using are unsafe, well then, which manufacturers are we discussing?

Cite examples of manufacturers who rate their gear at unsafe minimum load/thermal driver ratings. This and many other threads feature home brew “experts” regularly condemning “the manufacturers” for such practices; perform a true public service, name them and cite specific examples.

 

[rpsands]

Just about every manufacturer rates their cabs at thermal ratings, which are almost always 2x to 4x what safe displacement figures would be.

 

[edbass]

Just about every manufacturer rates their cabs at thermal ratings, which are almost always 2x to 4x what safe displacement figures would be.

Such as... who, and which cab?
Who's cab have you "put the screws to" and had fail on you because it was rated under "safe displacement figures"?

Do TB a favor and steer the forum away from these lying miscreants.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Just about every manufacturer rates their cabs at thermal ratings, which are almost always 2x to 4x what safe displacement figures would be.

Displacement (excursion) varies inversely with the square of frequency, so there's there's not a straight correlation between power input and excursion.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

BUT… I guess I’m missing whatever point you are trying to make.

Why are you getting your panties all wadded up? What does it hurt to run an amp at its manufacturers minimum load rating? If a player chooses to run max, even if they do it just to brag about “watts”, who cares?

In my opinion, the point he is trying to make is the posts that come up a couple of times a week that go something like this:

____________________________________________________

Mr.A - I am currently running a head that is rated at 500 watts @ 4 ohms, and 350 watts @ 8 ohms.

I am using a brand "X" 2X10 cab which is 8 ohms. Can I rewire the cabinet to run @ 4 ohms


Mr. B - no, you cannot rewire an 8 ohm cab to be 4 ohms without changing the speakers.

Why would you want to do this anyway ?


Mr.A - because I want to get the full 500 watts from my rig
____________________________________________________


It is as if these people believe that getting that extra 150 watts into the same cab they are using is going to magically get them louder and cure all their problems.

 

[rpsands]

Displacement (excursion) varies inversely with the square of frequency, so there's there's not a straight correlation between power input and excursion.

Yes, I know. Still, some vendors have figured out ways to provide decent estimates at displacement limited power handling

Barefaced rates power handling based on the saddle above the tuning frequency I believe, or something along those lines.

It would be easy enough to publish a maxSPl chart, or a displacement chart @ X watts with a swept sine wave, etc.

 

[rpsands]

Such as... who, and which cab?
Who's cab have you "put the screws to" and had fail on you because it was rated under "safe displacement figures"?

Do TB a favor and steer the forum away from these lying miscreants.

I haven't ever blown a driver, because I listen to distortion cues and I know enough about how displacement works.

Lots of other people have not been so lucky.