Markbass CMD 121H (300w @ 8 ohms) and Fender Bassman 150 (150w @ 8 ohms, I think, might be 4, it doesn't say on the back, anyway it's 150w with just the internal speaker). The two combos are about the same size, volume-wise. 300w sure sounds a lot louder than 150w. So, ya'll tell me why. Dumb question, huh? It's just that so much of this conversation makes it seem like watts don't matter. I wanna know why.
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Pull ALL the watts
- Thread starter MuzikMan
- Start date
Markbass CMD 121H (300w @ 8 ohms) and Fender Bassman 150 (150w @ 8 ohms, I think, might be 4, it doesn't say on the back, anyway it's 150w with just the internal speaker). The two combos are about the same size, volume-wise. 300w sure sounds a lot louder than 150w. So, ya'll tell me why. Dumb question, huh? It's just that so much of this conversation makes it seem like watts don't matter. I wanna know why.
There could be a couple of different reasons, or any combo
First of all, different manufacturers voice their amps differently. Not all amps are like power amps that simply amplify. Some may be relatively flat, while other have huge mid bumps. Even when on a scope showing identicle watage output, they will have different frequency content.
Second - each manufacturer uses different speakers. Just because both combos may be loaded with an 8 ohm 12" speaker, it does not make them equal. The specs of the speaker (again - like the voicing of the amp) can make them sound radically different, as well as the sensitivity of the speaker.
One speaker that is 3db more sensitive than another will put out sound equivalent to doubling the wattage.
It's not typical, but it IS my exact scenario, and that's how I described it. In this specific case it matters a lot
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The available power isn't the only thing different with those combos. They probably have different drivers in there too. I for one don't believe that watts don't matter at all, but I do know that watts alone is not an indicator of volume potential. A good horn loaded cab can get very loud with very few watts.
The biggest single problem is cab manufacturers showing thermal ratings in their specs instead of displacement limitation.
Since most commercial cabs are actually only displacement limited to about half their wattage (thermal) rating, the wattage rating makes their cabs seem bigger/better/louder than they really can get.
So a lot of people (even experienced players) are tripped out on pushing a 1000 watt amp into a 1000 watt 410 cab (for example) when said cab can probably only handle 300-400 watts before crapping out entirely.
About the only reason watts will matter (as in wanting more power and actually being able to use it with a given cab) would be when someone has maybe a 200 watt amp and they have a cab that could actually use maybe 800 watts. That might be a scenario where more watts would at least give the player more headroom and keep the amp from being pushed too hard.
Having said that...BFM is right, watts are the least important part of the equation. He certainly didn't mean they are completely unimportant. Just not the big deal so many make it out to be.
Took me years to grasp that concept because I spent almost 30 years believing that stupid myth.
Since most commercial cabs are actually only displacement limited to about half their wattage (thermal) rating, the wattage rating makes their cabs seem bigger/better/louder than they really can get.
So a lot of people (even experienced players) are tripped out on pushing a 1000 watt amp into a 1000 watt 410 cab (for example) when said cab can probably only handle 300-400 watts before crapping out entirely.
About the only reason watts will matter (as in wanting more power and actually being able to use it with a given cab) would be when someone has maybe a 200 watt amp and they have a cab that could actually use maybe 800 watts. That might be a scenario where more watts would at least give the player more headroom and keep the amp from being pushed too hard.
Having said that...BFM is right, watts are the least important part of the equation. He certainly didn't mean they are completely unimportant. Just not the big deal so many make it out to be.
Took me years to grasp that concept because I spent almost 30 years believing that stupid myth.
Hey I have a Hartke Hydrive 112 with selectable 8 or 4 ohm settings. It was very affordable and will totally crush an 810 on the 4-ohm setting!
Ah, it's just a good-sounding and lightweight cab at a nice price. The impedence switch doesn't really matter to me at all. I could just as easily toast it at 8 ohms as I could at 4.
Hey I have a Hartke Hydrive 112 with selectable 8 or 4 ohm settings. It was very affordable and will totally crush an 810 on the 4-ohm setting!
Ah, it's just a good-sounding and lightweight cab at a nice price. The impedence switch doesn't really matter to me at all. I could just as easily toast it at 8 ohms as I could at 4.
Interesting! I'm guessing a dual voice coil speaker and switches the second 8 Ohm coil in and out parallel to the first?
Yeah, I think it would have to be some ancient amp head putting out about 50 watts @ 4-ohms to make any sense.
FWIW, I do keep it set at 8 ohms.
I can't really see any advantage to having the 4-ohm option.
Yup. I have to say though, that apart from the questionable impedence switch, it is a very nice-sounding and lightweight cab for light-duty applications.
Thanks, yeah, there are differences. I just noticed the MB is a little bigger. And true, speaker sensitivity is probably different.
I just find it difficult to judge how loud an amp is gonna be if I can't go by watts. Some of this stuff I don't know very well.
JimmyM said:
Yes and no... by comparison, knowing that an engine redlines at 18K RPM certainly isn't useless, but it certainly won't tell you how fast you're going or how much torque you're throwing at the ground.
Hmm... we need dyno charts for speakers!
I never quite understood the fixation, I get how you have so much more clean headroom if you're rockin +1000W, but when do you think you actually pour that much into your rig when you're playing?
Now, I can see if you have a 1500W-2000W power amp pushing 4 4x10's and 4 15's spread across the stage, and you have no PA support so have to blast as much bass out as possible. But in the last year, all my gigs have been 275 watts into a 4x10 cab, which suits a basement bar just fine, and anything bigger I get mic'd into the house PA.
But I can't bash anyone's craving more "wattage" as if its a status symbol, I see truck guys brag horsepower all day long, then the econo-car people come in and argue MPG. Both win their prospective arguments, but at the end of the day, each is to his own.
Now, I can see if you have a 1500W-2000W power amp pushing 4 4x10's and 4 15's spread across the stage, and you have no PA support so have to blast as much bass out as possible. But in the last year, all my gigs have been 275 watts into a 4x10 cab, which suits a basement bar just fine, and anything bigger I get mic'd into the house PA.
But I can't bash anyone's craving more "wattage" as if its a status symbol, I see truck guys brag horsepower all day long, then the econo-car people come in and argue MPG. Both win their prospective arguments, but at the end of the day, each is to his own.
Toastfuzz said:
Application is certainly key, and I can guarantee that each time I play out a) I will be competing with two VHT halfstacks and a hard hitting drummer and b) most provided house PA systems have a certain Mary Shelley quality about them. To wit, we also play louder music and a variety of locations ranging from clubs to basements and beyond, so at times it is a crap shoot.
Having good gear with the extra power available as needed reduces our reliance on factors out of our hands and makes it easier to show up and rip through a set without any extra delay. Gratuitous set up / tear down times are lame... people come to see live music, not stare at technical issues being sorted out while listening to an oversized stereo between acts.
Besides, you can always turn a loud setup down... so whats wrong with the additional insurance?
billfitzmaurice
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Do that and it's going to sound like crap anyway. Never split cabs.
The OP's intent is to address the chronically recurring questions posed here regarding 'getting all the watts out of my amp'. Those questions wouldn't be posed if average players were aware of the fact that there is no linear relationship between power and volume. But the industry certainly doesn't try to dispel that notion. If anything they encourage it.
Tru dat, industry likes us to have the notion that more watts = more volume = more better = more money. That said, even though I love my little 450W amp, if I knew then what I knew now I would have got something in the massive power range, like you guys are saying. As it is, I'd lose 50% of my original investment if I sold my current amp used and bought a new one, so where I sit now, I'm going to keep pushin her to her limits.
I really am curious though, if you have a say 1500W power amp pushing your 8x10 stack (thats what I'm pushing with 450W), how much power do you think you're actually feeding it usually? Even though its nice to "have the extra headroom", what do you gain by running your amp at 1/4 volume vs. me running mine at 3/4 volume? I'd like to know the applications that require you to really crank that sucker...big outdoor shows with no PA support?
*Edit: Actually I take back what I said, I dont know if I would really want a big giant amp or not, since my amp does push out a unique tone when its opened wide up. I love when we're soundchecking and the soundguy tells my guitarist to turn down, which he hates, because he won't get "that tone" that he's used to (of his amp being cranked). Its less noticeable for me with my rig, but it really is a perfect storm whenever all 3 of us get to crank our amps to the max, and the drummer feels like his arms are gonna fall off trying to keep up
I agree, and ashamedly was one of those people who asked. But to the OP(as well as others), would it not make more sense to be mad at the manufacturers instead of the users/players? I think that's one of the main reasons why we have TB, so we can bounce it back from you all to be sure, and not the "GC "car" salesperson" who's looking to make a buck. Eample. Yes, there are some of us out there smart enough to know not to smoke. But when it been shoved down our throats as ok/cool/mature, and not aware of the consequences, most will flock. Now that most are informed, looks like we've placed the blame on the right entity now!
