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Putting together a new rig, advice very much appreciated

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by kanped, Mar 25, 2013.


  1. kanped

    kanped

    Mar 25, 2013
    Carrickfergus
    Hey guys. Getting a bunch of new equipment in the near future since I'm now at a point where I can say that playing bass is a side-line job rather than a hobby and I feel that my current gear isn't good enough right now. I'm planning on using this for as long as possible in a variety of venues and bands but primarily, in my 'rocky' wedding band, with 1 guitar, keys, drums, bass and 4 vocals.

    A luthier friend of mine is currently putting together a new workhorse 4-string for me (http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/kanped/20130201_113729_zps834e75f0.jpg). It's going to have Seymour Duncan SBP-3 quarter pound pickups in it when finished. I'm also using a stock Ibanez BXP-5 but I really want to put passive EMGs in it and throw the damn active EQ out of a window at some stage (I'm a 'set everything on the bass to full, let the outboard get the sound' kinda guy). For now, all that's still there and being used.

    I've never really gone this in-depth with hardware before but I've done some research and this is what I've come up with;

    First thing I definitely want is the upcoming SansAMP VT Bass Rackmount pre-amp. I've been using the old DI for many years and I've always loved it but I think it's time for an upgrade now. Tone comes from here, because the tone is awesome.

    Power amp; I was looking at the Peavey IPR 1600 DSP. I want this rig to be as portable as possible; we play a lot in venues with thin, tall, wet outdoor staircases and heavy stuff is always a pain. these seem solid to me, the price is decent but that's all I know. I think I will make use of the DSP elements for the crossover if nothing else. I'm not 100% sure if the power is enough considering what I'm planning with the cabs.

    So, my luthier friend and I are planning on building the cabs. This is the bit I really need advice on because I've done a lot of research and I think I've got a good proposition here but I may be making a huge mistake, I don't really know.

    The setup is a 15/6 ( 18 Sound 15MB606 / 6NM410) and a 15 sub (FaitalPRO 15PR400). I really like a lot of percussive mids punch in my tone but I can get that through my current 15" with a tweeter in spades (SansAMP into Carlsboro Bass Beasty). When I use a 5-string, though, I don't get the big, big lows I want. This seemed like a good way to do both, and also allows me to ditch the sub if I'm playing smaller venues.

    Dunno if that's enough to go on for advice, but I can't think of anything else to say about it... so... thanks in advance, guys.
     
  2. The CLPeavey400 fella uses one of those peavey power amps into various fearful cabs. I wouldn't bother trying to top the fearful design but Carrickfurgus is probably starved of 3015LF's.

    Having a full DSP two channel amp available you should be able to design a sub and mid/high cabs for your drivers. Tweak EQ and crossover to suit, but no way you could leave the sub behind without a full on house PA. So you should probably chuck it all in one box with the 6" seperately chambered a la fearful and biamp it.

    Wedding bands don't have to make more noise than the acoustic drums can keep up with here, rowdy drummers need not apply either.

    One uber cab won't need any PA in that situation so you will have to get your own EQ sorted out in sound check. A wireless set will come in handy so you can check it out in the heat of the gig.
     
  3. Foz

    Foz

    Jul 26, 2008
    Jax FL USA
  4. The 15PR400 isnt a "sub" persay. It is a full range driver, that has really sweet mids. I would never dream of using it as a sub, and Im not sure how well it would perform as a dedicated sub for that matter. Additionally I wouldnt mix your woofers, so which ever driver you plan on using in one box, use the same in the other. The MB 606 is also a full range driver, and for some of the same reasons would be a big "pass" as part of a box like you are talking about.

    What I *would* do is pair that 18sound mid, which is a very potent driver, with something like an eminence 3015LF or a pair of 3012LF's.
     
  5. My bad, I assumed he had a sub driver driver lined up.

    Faital probably make a proper sub driver that is cheaper in Ireland than a 3015LF.
     
  6. From my experiance with the IPR 1600, and a fair number of fEARful cabs, one proper fEARful 15/6 and a bridged IPR will keep up with just about any drummer. Add a second 15/6 or a 15sub, and you had better be putting the drummer in the PA.
     
  7. kanped

    kanped

    Mar 25, 2013
    Carrickfergus
    Correct; 3015LFs are not easy to come by here (not that anything else is, either). I could, in theory, build a straight up fearful cab but the whole philosophy of those cabs is in faithful, transparent representation of the pre-amp stage and I thought these tweaks were more in tune with what I wanted to do with this rig. I am in no way suggesting I know better than greenboy; never in a million years, but I wanted to try something a bit different, I can read frequency graphs and this looked like the kind of response I wanted from the speakers in the cabs. Again, I may be screwing up. No idea.

    I'll explain a bit more about the setup for the band. In small venues, we use 2 15" PA speakers with tweeters as a vocal PA, with some guitar and keys. These are usually 50-100 person rooms; I've had no problems getting heard with the Beasty combo over our drummer (admittedly rowdier than most, but that's kinda our style). For bigger venues, we add 2 18" cabs and everything goes through the PA, including drums. I have enough room in my leads to dander out front of house and dictate the sound back to the guitar player working the desk. We all also use in-ear-monitors (wired, through headphone amps).

    One big cab; the weight and portability become a huge issue for me. In those small venues, it just has no place and often times we're really pushed for space on the stage, as well. I'd just rather have the option. Also, we'll always have a PA of some description on hand for the wedding band.

    Thanks for the reply.

    EDIT: The reason for going with the Faital speaker was the flat response in the subs compared to the 3015LF. I figured if I was running it through a crossover anyway, that it would give a better sub response. The 3015LF also spikes at 2Khz, which I thought might clash with the other 15"; I figured the sub would be better flat?
     
  8. Can you source the 3015 (non LF) any easier? If so then I would suggest you take a look at the tl-606 plans, adapt them to 1/2", add bracing ala fEARful, and then tune the cabs for a 3015. I think it would have the mid range agressiveness you want, with out having to dick around with trying to cross over full range drivers to mid drivers. A pair of those cabs is a serious rig, and you will probably come out ahead not having to buy mid drivers.
     
  9. kanped

    kanped

    Mar 25, 2013
    Carrickfergus
    I'm pretty skeptical about using just a 15" speaker. I've found different tweeters have varying results but looking at the graphs, I'd feel a lot more safe going with a 6" driver in there as well; I know for a fact that any 12" drivers I've ever played with no tweeter (sometimes even with one) don't give me the high mids I want.

    I can source the Kappalite 3015LF (£300 a pair, if I went that way with it, another £100 for the 6").
    I really thought the Faital with a crossover looked like a better sub driver based on the frequency response but I know I'm ignorant on the subject. Do you think a 15/6 with the 3015LF and a sub with the 3015LF is going to be the best way to go, then? Straight up fEARful cabinet?

    EDIT: What about using 2 FaitalPRO 15PR400s in place of the 3015s? One full range, one crossed for a sub? Same idea as the fEARful, just with a wider, flatter response? That speaker IS being marketed as a sub-driver for bass cabs by the company but if it can give me punchy mids and it's a bad idea to mix the woofers, then it seems like a good option to me.
     
  10. You should be crossing over around 800-1000 hz anyways, so the peaks above that dont really matter with the 3015LF. I havent seen anyone implement the MB 606 as of yet, but I am very familiar with the performance of the Eminence drivers.

    The reason I would suggest the fEARful is that the designs are already done, and free. You can also use the internal cross over and not have to deal with setting up DPS to manage that. It will also give you the versatility to use something besides your power amp should you ever want to switch amps.
     
  11. Foz

    Foz

    Jul 26, 2008
    Jax FL USA
    That's about $450 US? = a good price for a pair of 30xxLF's.

    Forget the response of the "30xxLF" woofs above 800 Hz... you're xover'd out of it by then and the mid takes over. The case for this driver class is the large excursion = will make low-lows amazingly well.

    Do it - build a 66 - I dare you.

    Though a single 15/6 will handle more than you think... probably a lot more...but if you get loud, and portability is really important, a pair 12/6's is a smart play - a lot guys with a pair of em manage to do most of their gigs with a single 12/6 and can rock the house if they bring both. YMMV

    ==

    The 15PR400 is very well thought of by many - but generally used full range, example:

    http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/custom-diy-2x15-cab-build-854517/

    If you are looking to do a woof/mid cab I'd use a more capable in lows woof like the "LF" since it aint needed for high mids why compromise?
     
  12. kanped

    kanped

    Mar 25, 2013
    Carrickfergus
    I'm wondering which is the compromise here. From where I'm standing, the Eminence slopes off pretty steadily from 100Hz down and sits flat at about 98db from 150Hz to just under 1Khz. The Faital is hitting 90db at 35Hz and stays flatter the whole way, which would presumably make it play nicer with the 6NM410 in the top cab as well. The price difference is marginal and I've no problem playing with DSPs and crossovers to get a sound. I'm just not seeing why the 3015LFs are the better speaker for the job at this point.

    I would also like to set my crossover a bit higher than 1Khz at least to experiment; things like Claypool's flamenco style and crazy fuzz/synth effects can creep way into the high end and leaving all that to one 6" driver seem a bit much, if I'm doing that kind of thing at the time (not often in the wedding band, I'll grant you but I do have other interests).
     
  13. Foz

    Foz

    Jul 26, 2008
    Jax FL USA
    Excursion is the key attribute for a woof that need not carry the mids - as is the case in the cab you describe. The 30xxLF's excel at operating with high excursion to produce very loud low-lows and thus are stellar in woof/mid cabs.
     
  14. +1

    I checked out the 18sound mb606, they only list an xLim which is quite high. They do not list an xMax, so hard to say when the driver will be hitting that point.
     
  15. kanped

    kanped

    Mar 25, 2013
    Carrickfergus
    OK, guys. That makes complete sense, actually. I can probably also save quite a bit of money by ordering the flatpack kits. So; 15/6 with a 3015LF and a 6NM410 and a 15 sub with another 3015LF seems to be the way to go, then? (sorry to disappoint, but I really don't wanna haul around a 66 to play for 50 wedding guests)

    Any other advice, in particular with the Peavey IPR 1600 DSP; is it enough power for the speakers, should I consider an iNuke or Crown Drivescore? Anything else I should consider?

    Big thanks for all the help so far.

    EDIT: Oh! Very important; any reason to add a tweeter to the 15/6? Just a needless pain or worth having?
     
  16. Pass on both the iNuke and the drive core. For the price and weight you really cant beat the IPR. Bridged (you have to make a special cable for this) it will drive a 15/6 and a 15sub to stupid levels. It also has a good sensitivity, so should you decide to change your preamp it will be friendly with just about anything driving it.
     
  17. kanped

    kanped

    Mar 25, 2013
    Carrickfergus
    Excellent, that's what I figured. I've always trusted Peavey, since my first good bass.

    Opinions on a tweeter before I go shopping?
     
  18. I would go with the one laid out in greenboys plans. Foz may have a recommendation as well.
     
  19. kanped

    kanped

    Mar 25, 2013
    Carrickfergus
    Oh, I just mean whether to have one or not; they're optional in the designs as far as I can tell.
     
  20. I have a tweeter in all my cabs. I also have an attenuator and an on/off switch. Its there when I need it, and I can turn it off when I dont. In my mind I would rather have it and not use it, than want for it and not have it.
     

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