QSC PLX v. Crest Audio CA Series

[Lowtonejoe]

I shudder to mention this, but I've been contemplating a little get together and speaker shootout sometime in June or July out here. If someone from the Portland or Seattle area wants to bring in some big iron amps, I might be coerced into setting up a double blind test. I have access to a 300 seat nightclub during off hours, and I could wire up some patch cables and switching to sufficiently randomize the comparisons. Someone else is gonna have to pony for the beer though.

I reserve the right to weasel out of this at any time, and I also welcome better suggestions for testing methodology.

------------------Charlie

Hey, send me an invite!

I'l bring as many pieces of gear as I can in my Camry!

But give me some notice so I can arrange for time off.



Joe.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

You should trust your ears, but be aware also of how they can fool you. That's why there is value in matching gains and double blind tests. Even the same amp and speaker system will sound different, with different sound qualities, at different volumes; this is an example of how your ears can and will fool you, especially if you are not aware of the phenomenon.

Audio is full of myths, misinformation, and marketingspeak that will suck money out of your wallet if you don't watch out for it, or if you let others convince you you're not really committed to music or whatever if you do watch out. That's why there is a lucrative market in things like speaker cables with arrows on them and other superfluous junk.

A couple years ago some live audio guys who frequent ProSoundWeb held a subwoofer shootout, on Long Island, NY, IIRC. For some reason they took a vote on what power amp they thought drove the subwoofers the best, and the winner was an amp with a switch-mode power supply, interestingly enough. I don't know what their methodology was, so I rate that as just a "nice to know" sort of thing and not a proven argument of superiority. But that and the increasing usage of amps with switch-mode power supplies powering subwoofers in live sound systems seems to contradict the allegation that they can't handle low frequencies.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

wow, you are basing opinion on a non double blind test that most likely didn't bother to match input gain

Why would you post that if you are trying to break the myths, misinformation, and marketingspeak that will suck money out of your wallet if you don't watch out for it?

You apparently didn't read what I wrote.

 

[hasbeen]

well, Bob Lee is respected by our engineer Andy Field so ....good enough for me. Even as the Genz Benz product manager, I enjoy Jim's cabs....I'm a player and gear junkie too.

One observation I continue to make when people are discussing tube vs. SS vs. Mosfet vs. toroidal vs. digital is that people don't talk about FEEL.

I was a professional bassist for years before I went "corporate". Engineers often talk about blindfold tests. Well, in many situations I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if somebody was playing for me. If I was playing though, blindfolded or not, I could tell the difference in any of the output designs listed above. As a musician, feel is just as important as tone.

Kindest Regards,
Roger Hart
Genz Benz, Product Mgr.

 

[Dr. PhunkyPants]

I'm not saying anyone else should think the weight difference is worth it - only that for I want to hear, I've gotta haul.

In a long thread full of memorable quotes, this is my fav. How many times have I posted "You gotta haul tone."

I now see that what I should be saying is: *I* gotta haul *MY* tone.

 

[tombowlus]

As a musician, feel is just as important as tone.

Good point, Roger! Thank you for adding to this thread!

Tom.

 

[the dude]

In a long thread full of memorable quotes, this is my fav. How many times have I posted "You gotta haul tone."

I now see that what I should be saying is: *I* gotta haul *MY* tone.

Yah, why convince someone else to sound more like you? (even if in only the smallest of ways...)

 

[PB+J]

I never try to get "MY" tone--I try to get a tone that works. If the band sounds good, if people like it, I know I have a good tone that's working. I used to twiddle knobs trying to get "my" tone no matter what the venue or the sound of the room. Now I try to listen to the room and get an effective tone.

At the same time, after years of playing, i do more or less have a sound that's mine, it's it's pretty consistent from venue to venue. So in a sense I got MY tone by letting go of the idea that I have to get MY tone all the time. I get the sound of me being effective.

Ears lie--I notice this every day. My rig sounds often great to me in the morning, but then same rig, same room, same settings--sounds lousy in the afternoon. Or it goes the other way

 

[emjazz]

One observation I continue to make when people are discussing tube vs. SS vs. Mosfet vs. toroidal vs. digital is that people don't talk about FEEL.

I was a professional bassist for years before I went "corporate". Engineers often talk about blindfold tests. Well, in many situations I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if somebody was playing for me. If I was playing though, blindfolded or not, I could tell the difference in any of the output designs listed above. As a musician, feel is just as important as tone.

Kindest Regards,
Roger Hart
Genz Benz, Product Mgr.

Roger, you've brought up a very important point that hasn't been discussed. Every bass, different pickup, preamp, poweramp gives the instrument a different feel under your fingers. These are all exremely important to each individual player whether they realized it conciously or not. It plays a big part in what appeals to us on a personal level. I've gone through many basses, many preamps and pickups and amplifiers and speakers. Too many really. I know that personally a poweramp with a traditional power supply works for me under my fingers. It may be different for others. between what I feel from my hands and what I hear with my ears this is the right choice for me. All of the technical specs and jargon (whether correctly represented or not) doesn't mean anything if my hands and ears don't agree.

I personally have never played an amp with a digital power switching supply that I've liked, minus the Walter Woods amps. Even then there's a difference but that's the best I've heard thus far. I challenge anyone to put your favorite digital amplifier up against a Glockenklang poweramp. There's just such a huge difference that anyone would hear it immediately. The Glock poweramps are very heavy. Also, as far as I know I've not seen or heard of a studio using digital amps yet. What they use are obscenely heavy amps that are built for the greatest accuracy possible. You just can't get that yet with digital. A friend of mine has a Mark Levenson amp for his studio mains. That amp is one of the heaviest amps I've ever felt. Boy does it sound good though.

 

[Petebass]

Also, as far as I know I've not seen or heard of a studio using digital amps yet. What they use are obscenely heavy amps that are built for the greatest accuracy possible. You just can't get that yet with digital. A friend of mine has a Mark Levenson amp for his studio mains. That amp is one of the heaviest amps I've ever felt. Boy does it sound good though.

Yes but studios only have to carry it on once and then they never lift it ever again. They're not the target market for anything lightweight. The target market is the end user who carries his own equipment in and out of venues on a regular basis.

 

[hasbeen]

Great post, Roger! I couldn't agree more. This holds true for speakers as well. In fact, one of the many lessons I learned as a designer for bass cabinets (vs. home audio and even PA) is the importance of "feel". Some of my designs, which I thought sounded fine while listening to someone play through them, ended up being "canned" because to the player(s), it didn't "feel" right. Before starting Bergantino Audio, I was working on a design trying to make a 4 ohm version sound like my 8 ohm version. I was able to get the measurements to "virtually" overlap, but was told the 4 ohm version didn't have the same feel. This also further drives home the point about measurements, and how they are more of a tool, and not the determining factor as to what sounds and performs best for a particular application. Great point, and thank you for your post and wisdom!

Regards,

Jim Bergantino
Bergantino Audio Systems

thanks for enjoying my post. It's a nice compliment coming from somebody as esteemed as you.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Roger, you've brought up a very important point that hasn't been discussed. Every bass, different pickup, preamp, poweramp gives the instrument a different feel under your fingers. These are all exremely important to each individual player whether they realized it conciously or not. It plays a big part in what appeals to us on a personal level. I've gone through many basses, many preamps and pickups and amplifiers and speakers. Too many really. I know that personally a poweramp with a traditional power supply works for me under my fingers. It may be different for others. between what I feel from my hands and what I hear with my ears this is the right choice for me. All of the technical specs and jargon (whether correctly represented or not) doesn't mean anything if my hands and ears don't agree.

I personally have never played an amp with a digital power switching supply that I've liked, minus the Walter Woods amps. Even then there's a difference but that's the best I've heard thus far. I challenge anyone to put your favorite digital amplifier up against a Glockenklang poweramp. There's just such a huge difference that anyone would hear it immediately. The Glock poweramps are very heavy. Also, as far as I know I've not seen or heard of a studio using digital amps yet. What they use are obscenely heavy amps that are built for the greatest accuracy possible. You just can't get that yet with digital. A friend of mine has a Mark Levenson amp for his studio mains. That amp is one of the heaviest amps I've ever felt. Boy does it sound good though.

Digital amps are another story. When you're talking about Digam or Tact amps or one of the few other digital amp marques, their topology is very different from the amps with linear output sections that have either conventional or switch-mode power supplies. (Digam is oriented toward sound reinforcement, while Tact is marketed toward the high end hi-fi market.) I've heard good and bad reviews of digital amps, but I'd like to check them out and see if they actually sound different when you can only pay attention to the sound.

 

[Brian Barrett]

Bob

I'd be interested in your take on the Lab Gruppen amps, like the FP2600 for example. http://www.labgruppen.com/

Also have you tested the Crest New Pro 200 series and your take?


I've mentioned both in previous post, but no one has replied to the technology of LG or the New Crest Pro 200 series. I know how they compare to me in my testing with the other amps and Tech designs mention, but I'm interested if you (Bob) have done any test with either.

 

[hasbeen]

Roger,

Thank you for your kind words! The reality is, however, that I not only listen to, and respect opinions and experieces from people like yourself, I learn from them! As a designer and engineer, I learn a lot from listening to player's experiences with my products and others. They may not be able to speak in technical terms, but the more I can translate their experiences into my way of designing, the better I feel my products reflect a players needs and applications. The worst thing any designer and engineer can do, IMO, is design in a "vacuum". That's how many of us come up with perfect solutions to irrelavent problems!

Regards,

Jim Bergantino
Bergantino Audio Systems

you're welcome. We feel the same way at our company. I'm not an engineer so as the product manager, I bring the player's perspective and hopefully, if I'm doing my job, the market's perspective. Andy, our engineer and Jeff Genzler do the design. I think we're living in the "golden age of bass" both on the instrument and amplification side. There is so much superior product out there.

When I was on the road some twenty years ago basically all we had to chose from was a pre&power amp rack rig, SWR, Trace Elliot or SVT. SWR and Trace were very new back then.
Today's bassist has so many choices.

Peace and good luck to you and Bergantino. I hope we get to meet at a trade show. ...I'll introduce myself if I/we get the chance.

 

[tombowlus]

I think we're living in the "golden age of bass" both on the instrument and amplification side. There is so much superior product out there.

I strongly agree. The only problem, of course, is chosing amongst all the great products out there. I should know...

 

[Dr. PhunkyPants]

I remember reading a memorable article from several years back where Bass Player or someone similar got about 12 leading luthiers around a table to talk about design trends and "surviving" in a Fender-dominated world.

Wouldn't it be freaking awesome to get Jim, Roger, Nick Epifani, Dave Boonshoft, Shroeder, Mesa ,and anyone else I'm forgetting around a table for an hour to do the same? Maybe at one of the trade events? TB could sponsor the event!

 

[hasbeen]

I remember reading a memorable article from several years back where Bass Player or someone similar got about 12 leading luthiers around a table to talk about design trends and "surviving" in a Fender-dominated world.

Wouldn't it be freaking awesome to get Jim, Roger, Nick Epifani, Dave Boonshoft, Shroeder, Mesa ,and anyone else I'm forgetting around a table for an hour to do the same? Maybe at one of the trade events? TB could sponsor the event!

those are interesting. The vast majority of our competitors are VERY friendly competitors and we enjoy comparing notes. That's one of the pleasures of working in this industry.

I was invited to a Guitar Player/Bass Player magazine roundtable last winter NAMM but didn't get chance to attend.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

well, Bob Lee is respected by our engineer Andy Field so ....good enough for me. Even as the Genz Benz product manager, I enjoy Jim's cabs....I'm a player and gear junkie too.

One observation I continue to make when people are discussing tube vs. SS vs. Mosfet vs. toroidal vs. digital is that people don't talk about FEEL.

I was a professional bassist for years before I went "corporate". Engineers often talk about blindfold tests. Well, in many situations I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if somebody was playing for me. If I was playing though, blindfolded or not, I could tell the difference in any of the output designs listed above. As a musician, feel is just as important as tone.

Kindest Regards,
Roger Hart
Genz Benz, Product Mgr.

Hi Roger,

It's not really about blindfold tests, but about testing one variable at a time. If an engineer makes one change to a design and it produces a detectable improvement or degradation in performance, he or she can tell what the effect of that change is. If the engineer makes a bunch of changes that result in a detectable change, then which one(s) influenced it and which one(s) didn't? That's why when seeking comparisons of sound quality, you have to eliminate or equalize the other variables and make the focus on sound quality alone. Not controlling the other variables--cosmetics, prejudice for or against a brand or technology, psychoacoustic responses at different sound levels--makes any conclusion unreliable.

What conveys feel? The sound, or some different medium? The sound that comes out of a given loudspeaker cabinet is a result of the signal put into it, and two amplifiers that will put an identical signal into the cabinet will actually sound identical because there is no ether or other sidechannel for conveying the quality of the resulting sound. Any audible difference will be the result of a difference in the signal.

Since the ideal power amp is an objective functionality a "straight wire with gain," it shouldn't surprise anyone that good, well-designed ones sound very close, if not indistinguishable from one another, when you make sound quality the only variable.

 

[Mudbass]

Hi Roger,


What conveys feel? The sound, or some different medium? The sound that comes out of a given loudspeaker cabinet is a result of the signal put into it, and two amplifiers that will put an identical signal into the cabinet will actually sound identical because there is no ether or other sidechannel for conveying the quality of the resulting sound. Any audible difference will be the result of a difference in the signal.

This may be one of those things that can't be explained by engineers. What makes a Stradivarius so special? Engineers have been trying to unravel that mystery for a very long time. Not eveything can be measured, quantified and assigned a set of numbers. How do you measure feel on an oscilloscope? The engineer crunches the numbers and says...well they're identical so they must be the same. Meanwhile, the artist is telling him...no man, they're different as night and day. Can't you feel it?

 

[geshel]

This may be one of those things that can't be explained by engineers. What makes a Stradivarius so special? Engineers have been trying to unravel that mystery for a very long time. Not eveything can be measured, quantified and assigned a set of numbers. How do you measure feel on an oscilloscope? The engineer crunches the numbers and says...well they're identical so they must be the same. Meanwhile, the artist is telling him...no man, they're different as night and day. Can't you feel it?

Did you actually read what Bob wrote? His point is, if there's any difference in "feel" then there will be a distinct, measurable difference at the amp output. It is utterly impossible for whatever difference you noticed (assuming it is real) to come from anywhere else.

That has nothing to do with artists and engineers having different personality types or difficulties communicating with each other.

Engineers may "fail to explain" a difference, but they won't "fail to detect it" unless you believe there is some "divine path" that part of the signal travels through that does not involve the speaker cables.

And I don't think anybody is making a case for "well the Crest just gives off better vibes to me, man". People are stating that they believe they hear very real differences in the sound coming out of the speakers. More bass, etc. How can that not be measurable?