Question about Luthiers

[B-line]

Slightly off topic, but that's a sweet Stevens!

Yes it is, thanks. I'll make it on-topic. (As James Brown says: "Watch ME!")

From Michael Stevens site:
Although listed as specific models, these are “custom” guitars made by Michael Stevens.

After seeing a SLANT, & finding it was the OG Rosce Beck Model, and seeing the incredible stuff he does, I had no worries whatsoever about ordering. Of course Michaels' history more than speaks for itself.

He quoted (1) year, it took almost 2. So what?! On his own initiative, he sent build pics that i thought were cool, but TTTT, it made me that much more impatient to get/play!

He's a builder where there is no concern, nothing would leave his shop unless perfection. I could have made changes, he offered some options/suggestions and welcomed my input, but I told him: "YOU are the builder, I don't want to change your pups, your switching, or your design approach. Please just build me a STEVENS Slant 4"
My biggest decision was finish, I chose Shoreline Gold, and that is paint (nitro) from the original Fender stash.

Stress-less build, and Michael is one honest Texan! So- unless someone is trying to re-design the wheel with a bass guitar, and I don't think the vast majority are- Then the only thing to be confident of is the Builders skill and Integrity.

Stevens- A no-brainer, others- Well, you either need to do homework, talk to others, talk to the Builder, or whatever it takes to make sure you get what you want.

 

[benchpress11782]

No. If the OP wanted to change something, there should be an upcharge as a change order. This is done all the time in any custom creation market, from basses to houses. As I said, there is usually a charge, not just for the cost of the actual change, but often just for making a change, too.
The luthier's unwillingness to snap a pic makes me very suspicious. Having had full-custom basses built, my guy always sent me updates, and I changed a lot as we went along, and I paid extra for each change. I think he was happy to make them, as he made more money along the way.

Exactly my point.

 

[Picton]

I take pretty extensive pics of every guitar and uke I build. Not because I want to stroke the customers by dangling photos before them (though I do send them), but because I need to document what I do so that I can improve my building.

 

[WhenTheDrumsStops]

A lot of people are cagey about photos these days because internet. He might not want you posting photos of his bass yet, given that he's not sure you'll pay it off and might need to offer it for sale later. If he does, he won't want two sets of photos out there.

People post scam photos of stuff they don't own all the time.

If so, it's slightly paranoid on his part but not terribly unreasonable. The alternative? It's currently just a pile of wood and a coil of fretwire, and he's not going to build it at all until you're fully paid.

He could easily add a watermark to the photo's so that they can't be mis-used.

 

[Picton]

He could easily add a watermark to the photo's so that they can't be mis-used.

I know.

As I said, slightly paranoid.

 

[B-line]

I just re-read the entire (8) pages of this thread- (I know, pathetic, huh?)
And like any re-read, I picked up on a few things that are more obvious the 2nd time through:

First off- OP does not seem to speak English as a first language; that is in no way a diss, but there are some issues that are not crystal-clear in part due to this.

IF the main issue is that a "well-known" Builder would not send pics until the final payment is made...
Wait, What?

When the final payment is made- send the Bass, not pics.

Unless there is a total eff-up of the build quality, or original specs- And this from a "well-known" builder-then any disputes should be handled after the Customer receives the bass.

IF something like this happens- Then it was a VERY poor choice of builder.
Several times, the OP defends the luthier in the sense that he feels he is honest and competent, simply un-willing to send pics.
ANY builder who deserves to be in business- let alone a "well-known" one- Would have no issues whatsoever in correcting any legitimate flaw or defect in build-if the Customer was unhappy.

But that doesn't seem to be the case.The big gripe, after re-reading-is that Customer wants pics before he pays the balance.

What would pics show, unless there was a glaring scratch, or the finish was wrong, or different pups were installed?
Only after receiving the instrument could a true appraisal be made. And THEN- if corrections/returns/ exchanges/refund/whatever were needed- THEN its dealt with, not by seeing pictures.

I'm going to make an assumption, which is not always safe, but-

Most custom-build are a variant of what the builder offers as a "stock" model. Components, string-spacing, cosmetics, and the rest are personalized, but I would say 90% of the instrument is a design that builder has set-up, and aside from woods, options- That's what you'll be getting because that's what he builds-Whether its a Fodera, Alembic, Roscoe, or this "well-known" builder.
My CWG is from a guy who can & will cut anything you like-Plexiglass, bones, you name it. Totally custom from the ground-up
But for the great majority of his builds he will stick to a few basic models, then customize the build to the buyers spec.
That's what most customers want when they choose a builder. They liked what they saw before.

At this stage, all that can happen is that the OP should post a follow-up when (& if) he gets his bass, with or w/out pics first..
If he states that the bass was killer; just right-
Then much ado about NOTHING.

 

[bdplaid]

Paying money doesn't entitle a customer to be an overbearing dick, nuisance, best friend, etc... It has to be cordial but distant enough to be professional, and being professional does not flow in only one direction.

Yep, agreed completely.

Snapping pics is a daily thing for guitar builders.

I think it's a good practice, if for no other reason than to document your progress for your own purposes. Who knows, it might support the luthier in some far-fetched future legal claim. Actually, there's another thread going on about a guy whose luthier/tech fouled up his as-claimed mint AS bass. Had the luthier taken pics "before," a lot of problems might have been put to rest.

But I still say it's suspicious if a builder won't send pics.

I also say, Marko, that I love your attitude toward customer service! Wish I needed a custom; I have considered you in the past, but decided to not go that route. But if I do in future, I'd have a lot of confidence based on the comments you made here. Good Luck!

 

[74hc]

Next time, call Kiesel. Jeff does not have a problem with photos and the Internet.

 

[micguy]

I sometimes do rewirings for people. I don't charge for labor; I just get reimbursement for parts costs. It typically takes a couple weeks and a couple hindred dollars to do one of these.

Even tough it's a much shorter and cheaper job, I'm still usually working on a tool that a pro needs to do their job. I send updates and pictures whenever I have progress to report. It's good customer service and I wouldn't dream of not doing it.

One of my clients posted some progress pics on Facebook to talk about what I was doing to his bass. Any builder with half a brain would realize that as free high impact advertising.

Any builder that didn't send regular updates would not get my money.

 

[benchpress11782]

I's stop into his shop and ask to see it. If no bass, I'd want a refund on the spot.

Shop is way too far

 

[benchpress11782]

So you're whole argument is that it's simple and takes almost no time to send pics ... but then you want the builder to open themselves up to the possibility of having to make changes this late in the game?

I think this might be a reason the builder doesn't send pics before payment. You already agreed upon what you want in the bass, and the builder clearly has a reputation of high-quality work. What happens when he sends you photos, and you turn around and say "you know, I know I said I wanted (XXX feature/specs), but really I think maybe I want (XXX feature/specs) instead. I'm already paying you a lot of money, that won't take you long to change, right?" and you hold his payment ransom until he "fixes" something that is likely unnecessary.

Now, I'm not accusing you of doing something like that ... but I can see the argument from the builders point of view if that is why they are choosing not to disclose photos.

I am talking about minor changes if any. Like I wasn't sure if I wanted black or gold hardware. I said black but wasn't sure what would look best. And why can't I just see photos of the bass?

 

[Jeff Scott]

Thank you. And what if I wanted to change something during build? Now I couldn't.

Are you talking about your Obsession Excellency 6 build? What would you want to change on such an awesome bass?

 

[B-line]

All this was about a Jerzy Drozd??

Musta missed that. What could possibly be to worry with that builder's work??

And no, actually, since a builder would pre-order gold or black hardware, it would not be realistic to make a change at any time. Unless the builder was very cool, and had stock, or would not mind re-ordering (obviously they install the same)-
That's something IMO you would need to decide upon and stay with for all but the very earliest part of the build. That's just good protocol.

 

[Bourbongangster]

Are you talking about your Obsession Excellency 6 build? What would you want to change on such an awesome bass?

The plot thickens! Kinda surprised that this thread went 8 pages without some speculation of who the Luther is.

 

[benchpress11782]

That's a pretty good way to look at it! I assume everyone needs hand-holding, some more than others. I may be in the latter category, myself... But if a guy is parting with a couple/few thousand smackers, he deserves for more than his hand to be held. ;-) It ain't Fender.


Even so, if he accepted the money, he accepted the baggage that came with the customer. If he doesn't want to do any more work for the guy, he should say so. But really, a couple of phone pics? They take less time than reading these posts.

Yes

 

[B-line]

The plot thickens! Kinda surprised that this thread went 8 pages without some speculation of who the Luther is.

There WAS speculation, but no answer until Post #152. At least I SAW NOTHING! (Hogan's Heros re-runs).
To me that's a game-changer -JD is one of the premier builders today, and I can't even imagine anyone being unhappy, but then again...

And the whole sidetrack about whether it is a "must" for WIP pics...
I'm aghast that anyone would have an issue with that builder. IF he has a 'tude, he's earned it by virtue of his flawless work.

That's like saying to Nathan East, "Well, I might have a session for you, but you'll need to send me some samples or YouTube...."

Yikes. Jerzy Drozd. Magnificent.

 

[WardEarth]

Alright I only could make it half way through all the posts. But here are my thoughts if nobody already said it.
Your bass will probably be finished late but it is totally possible that the luthier can finish withing the next 2 weeks.
My guess is it hasn't changed much since the 1st pic.
It was kinda rude for the luthier to not give you a straight answer.
Chances are if he is a popular luthier he has lots of work.
Good luck, I'd probably just relax or send him a fairly respectful email.

 

[arbiterusa]

Are you talking about your Obsession Excellency 6 build? What would you want to change on such an awesome bass?

Aww damn that's some nice wood and work. OP, I don't usually say things like this, but...let it go. It's gonna be great.

 

[Eilif]

Unless there is a total eff-up of the build quality, or original specs- And this from a "well-known" builder-then any disputes should be handled after the Customer receives the bass...

...What would pics show, unless there was a glaring scratch, or the finish was wrong, or different pups were installed?

Only after receiving the instrument could a true appraisal be made. And THEN- if corrections/returns/ exchanges/refund/whatever were needed- THEN its dealt with, not by seeing pictures.

.

This is a ridiculous statement and ironically one that you offer a counter-example for in your own post. There are some things that can only be assesed in-person, but there's also perhaps dozens of things that could be wrong and seen in a picture, ALL of which can be taken care off before the instrument is received. Communication is not perfect and who knows what mistakes might have taken place, parts swapped or sections of different orders might have gotten switched. Even beyond a construction flaw that the builder might have missed, a picture could show that the builder accidentally had the wrong...
-finish
-nut
-Bridge
-tuners
-Body
-neck
-decal
-pickups
-pickguard (or no pickguard at all)

...and the list goes on. There is no reason on earth that a buyer should have to wait to recieve an instrument to see this flaw and then have to deal with the hassle of returning the instrument or arranging repairs on their end when a picture would have solved the issue.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's in the builder's best interest to do so. Paying 2-way shipping -which any reputable builder would do for a major screw up- could be well over $100.

All this to say it doesn't matter if it's Jerzy Drozd, or the a smaller builder, NO PICS NO PAYMENT!

As for the hardware issue, if the buyer decides they want a hardware swap, is swapping the same models (no new drilling) and are willing to pay for the parts (original and replacement) and labor, then the builder should step-up and offer the service.

 

[Chrisk-K]

In Talkbass no pics = no NBD. So it is fair to argue no pics of a completed bass = no payment. Heck, even on eBay nobody would bid if there is no pic.