Question for the matched cabs crowd

[Bassist4Eris]

This evening I played a multi-band bill. My rig consists of a GK400RB on a Carvin 4x10. The bassist in another band had a Carvin 2x10, and we agreed to combine forces and make a 6x10 stack.

Because of the nature of the gig, a quick changeover was necessary. So, while it was tempting to conduct a test on stage to determine whether I liked the 4x10 by itself, or with the 2x10 (or heck, the 2x10 by itself), that would have been rude to the following bands, so I opted to just go with the 6x10 concept. It didn't hurt that the owner of the 2x10 played before me, and had great tone while combining our cabs. I was also pleased with my tone tonight.

Now, I realize that it's up to me, if it sounds good it is good, etc, etc. But because I am generally pleased with my tone anyway, and because I didn't get a chance to test the principle, I'm really not sure whether I helped or hurt my tone. And while the question is largely academic, in the sense that I got a desirable tone either way, I'm still curious, and would like to hear from others, especially the more "science-minded" on this site. Did I commit a cardinal sin by mismatching cabs? Or did the fact that all speakers in question were 10" Carvins make the rig, in fact, a matched rig?

And please don't accuse me of trolling. I am a bit ignorant of these matters (and hoping to learn something) but I swear to you I am not trolling. I mention this because I know how contentious the mixed-cab thing can be on TB.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

If the 410 was a 4Ohm cab and the 210 a 8Ohm (or other similar combination of 1:2), it was a good match.
As long as the amp can handle the said load, obviously.

If the impedances were the same, the 210 drivers recieved twice the power the ones in the 410 did. Not necessarily bad, but obviously the drivers in the 210 would then be pushed harder and made them easier to over-excurse and blow.
Assuming the drivers were the exactly same in both cabs of course.

Regards
Sam

 

[Bassist4Eris]

Dang, I wish I thought to make note of that. Mine's 4 ohms. I bet his was too, but Carvin makes them both ways. He's a guy I know from the scene, so I'm sure to run into him again (I'll probably even share a gig with him again) so I can ask him.

 

[soitainly]

I've been playing bass and on these forums a little less than a year, and have little practical knowledge on using multiple speaker cabs. I read the arguments for matched speaker cabs and they seem to make a lot of sense. It just seems more efficient to spread the power equally between cabs. The idea that if you like how a cab sounds but need more volume, adding the matching cab sounds like a no brainer. I don't really disagree with any of this.

What I disagree with is calling not using matching cabs a mistake. I can see scenarios like what the original poster experienced where he thought mixed cabs sounded good. As long as you aren't overpowering the lesser cab then no harm done right? It sounds like a typical engineer's argument that if it isn't the most efficient or logical solution, then it is wrong. In reality there are many workable solutions to most problems, and when it comes to sound, it is up to the listener to determine what is "right". Am I wrong?

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

In reality there are many workable solutions to most problems, and when it comes to sound, it is up to the listener to determine what is "right". Am I wrong?

IMO, You're not wrong.

However...

I can see scenarios like what the original poster experienced where he thought mixed cabs sounded good.

The listener in a gig situation is everyone in the room, not just the bassplayer, or the band. For engineers like me, not trying to get the best and most uniform sound coverage for everyone is just counter-productive, that's all.

OTOH, a beaming rig, be that bass, guitar or keys, can help in reducing bleed to the mics and the audience when the PA does it's job and the individual rigs are used as monitors for the band.

Regards
Sam

 

[Mystic Michael]

Dang, I wish I thought to make note of that. Mine's 4 ohms. I bet his was too, but Carvin makes them both ways. He's a guy I know from the scene, so I'm sure to run into him again (I'll probably even share a gig with him again) so I can ask him.

You didn't mention the specific model(s) of Carvin cabs in question. Carvin makes more than one, so this will have some bearing.

If it's the BRX line, then you are correct: Both the 4x10 cab and the 2x10 cab are rated @ 4 ohms.

MM

 

[Mystic Michael]

What I disagree with is calling not using matching cabs a mistake. I can see scenarios like what the original poster experienced where he thought mixed cabs sounded good. As long as you aren't overpowering the lesser cab then no harm done right? It sounds like a typical engineer's argument that if it isn't the most efficient or logical solution, then it is wrong. In reality there are many workable solutions to most problems, and when it comes to sound, it is up to the listener to determine what is "right". Am I wrong?

It isn't quite as simple as that...

Try not to think of it in terms of "right" and "wrong". Instead, think of it terms of "consistent & predictable" vs. "inconsistent & unpredictable". Or perhaps "optimal" vs. "suboptimal".

By and large, this is a sound reproduction issue - not just a power matching issue.

The point that has been made with respect to the issue of matching cabs, over & over & over again, is that using well-designed matching cabs allows you to EQ for just one type of cab - rather than trying to hit some kind of magical EQ point of perfect compromise between two or more different, and frequently incompatible cabs. (I think the notion of mixed cabs - and mixed drivers...without a crossover - must be some kind of carryover from the guitar world, where mixing it up is thought to give one the best of both/all worlds. In reality, it often provides the worst of both/all worlds - at least in the bass world.)

Now, if one wishes to implement best practices in cab formation (yes it can be scientifically verified), then vertical stacking is clearly the way to go (as opposed to side by side on the floor). Doing so optimizes off-axis room coverage, and minimizes the effect of dead spots and hot spots in one's signal reproduction. But I suppose that's a tangential issue here, strictly speaking...

MM

 

[JimmyM]

The gig turned out well. That's all that matters.

 

[grey area]

i must say that before going wireless i thought my sound was fine with mixed cabs(tc rs 2x10 and mesa ph 1x15) and SOMETIMES it sounds great BUT sometimes it aint so great. thats why i am saving for another ph 1x15.i love the sound that one puts out and cant wait to hear what two of the bast&@ds willsound like being powered by a GKF 500.

 

[iualum]

It isn't quite as simple as that...

Try not to think of it in terms of "right" and "wrong". Instead, think of it terms of "consistent & predictable" vs. "inconsistent & unpredictable". Or perhaps "optimal" vs. "suboptimal".

By and large, this is a sound reproduction issue - not just a power matching issue.

The point that has been made with respect to the issue of matching cabs, over & over & over again, is that using well-designed matching cabs allows you to EQ for just one type of cab - rather than trying to hit some kind of magical EQ point of perfect compromise between two or more different, and frequently incompatible cabs. (I think the notion of mixed cabs - and mixed drivers...without a crossover - must be some kind of carryover from the guitar world, where mixing it up is thought to give one the best of both/all worlds. In reality, it often provides the worst of both/all worlds - at least in the bass world.)

Now, if one wishes to implement best practices in cab formation (yes it can be scientifically verified), then vertical stacking is clearly the way to go (as opposed to side by side on the floor). Doing so optimizes off-axis room coverage, and minimizes the effect of dead spots and hot spots in one's signal reproduction. But I suppose that's a tangential issue here, strictly speaking...

MM

Very nice. Yep.

 

[Foz]

Try not to think of it in terms of "right" and "wrong"....

+1

Its physics... it don't do good or evil.

Instead try to conceptualize cause and effect and be an engineer = a guy who can arrange things so you get twice the performance for half the cost.

===

The listener in a gig situation is everyone in the room...

+1

Sounds good to me when I stand on-axis 1m from the rig is a pisspoor standard for performance... unless you are the only person who ever hears your rig. For anything but large venues the bass rig can be a significant source of your signal not just on stage, but quite likely for most audience members [in medium to small venues it may well be the exclusive source]. Good off-axis performance and phase coherency are a BFD when your rig is THE signal source for the whole room.

===

Glad your gig went over... like Jimmy sez, that's the final tally.... but its not a reason to eschew the use of physics to make things even better next time - if you have the means.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Dang, I wish I thought to make note of that. Mine's 4 ohms. I bet his was too, but Carvin makes them both ways. He's a guy I know from the scene, so I'm sure to run into him again (I'll probably even share a gig with him again) so I can ask him.

This is the bigger concern for me. Adding any other cab to a 4 Ohm cab will bring the total impedance below 4 Ohms. I dont think your amp will be safe running that load.

You are fortunate you liked the sound. You are very lucky you didnt fry your amp.

 

[gregoire1]

This is the bigger concern for me. Adding any other cab to a 4 Ohm cab will bring the total impedance below 4 Ohms. I dont think your amp will be safe running that load.

You are fortunate you liked the sound. You are very lucky you didnt fry your amp.

Gotta be careful here. You were BELOW the 4 ohm minimum impedance

 

[Dave W]

Exactly...the 400RB can only handle a 4 ohm load. So, if your cab is in fact a 4 ohm cab, it was a bad match

 

[iualum]

Exactly...the 400RB can only handle a 4 ohm load. So, if your cab is in fact a 4 ohm cab, it was a bad match

Yep. If either wasn't 8 ohms.

 

[jungleheat]

The point that has been made with respect to the issue of matching cabs, over & over & over again, is that using well-designed matching cabs allows you to EQ for just one type of cab - rather than trying to hit some kind of magical EQ point of perfect compromise between two or more different, and frequently incompatible cabs. (I think the notion of mixed cabs - and mixed drivers...without a crossover - must be some kind of carryover from the guitar world, where mixing it up is thought to give one the best of both/all worlds. In reality, it often provides the worst of both/all worlds - at least in the bass world.)

I don't think I've ever heard ANYONE make this argument against mixed cabs. And in fact I would disagree that it's an issue and go even further and say it's actually the reverse, in that with 2 different cabs, you are going to have a large area of overlap, combined with generally at least some space on either end which only one cab occupies. What this typically does is give you a wider, and (usually) flatter system response. Which naturally makes it EASIER to EQ. A perfect example is my own main setup. My vintage Trace 2x10 sounds cool by itself, but it has a sort of unusual upper midrange response. While it's generally cool, it definitely works better for some tones than others. However, when you add either my EV or JBL 15 in, a few things happen. First, the peaks and dips of the speakers tend to flatten each other out somewhat. So that response of the Trace is made more subtle, just giving the overall sound a nice character. The 15 (either of them) also has more low end, due to the fact that the excursions are higher, and their frequency responses are lower than the 10s. Plus, it's taking 1/2 the burden of volume and low end off the 10s, so they are much happier in terms of power application.

Usually in these fundamentalist "mixing is of the devil" kind of threads, the matched cabs mafia brings up the spectre of the twin bogeymen of phase response and dispersion. These can be important components of your overall resoponse, or they might not really matter at all depending on the gear you are using and the situations you use it in. For instance if you come to DC and play in any of a number of typical venues that are all about 15 feet wide and 60 feet long, dispersion is really going to be of minimal importance. Pretty sure the people in the opposite back corner from your bass rig are going to hear you just fine. Probably too much bass if anything.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you're playing a 60-100 foot wide mega festival stage, then dispersion doesn't matter again because you just have a wall of cabs 15 feet wide and if you stay in front of them you will hear yourself JUST fine.

In the middle, it gets a little more complex, but those "bogeymen" are GENERALLY not nearly as important as they are made out to be, certainly not over overall good tone, price, power handling system frequency response, etc...

 

[Bassist4Eris]

This is the bigger concern for me. Adding any other cab to a 4 Ohm cab will bring the total impedance below 4 Ohms. I dont think your amp will be safe running that load.

You are fortunate you liked the sound. You are very lucky you didnt fry your amp.

This is why I shouldn't post at 1:30 in the morning. My cab is 8 ohms, not 4 as I incorrectly stated earlier. I'm getting more and more curious as to what that guy's cab was rated at. And yes, I am embarrassed to realize just how ignorant I am about this subject. And just how stupid it was of both of us (me and the other bass player I mean) to simply proceed plugging stuff in together without knowing what we were doing. Education time, I guess.

 

[Bassist4Eris]

Now, if one wishes to implement best practices in cab formation (yes it can be scientifically verified), then vertical stacking is clearly the way to go (as opposed to side by side on the floor). Doing so optimizes off-axis room coverage, and minimizes the effect of dead spots and hot spots in one's signal reproduction. But I suppose that's a tangential issue here, strictly speaking...

MM

Tangential or not, I'm glad you brought it up. I've been considering getting a pair of 2x10's and stacking them vertically. You seem like one of the brighter bulbs around here, so I'm glad to get your input on that.

 

[Bassist4Eris]

Good off-axis performance and phase coherency are a BFD when your rig is THE signal source for the whole room.

===

Glad your gig went over... like Jimmy sez, that's the final tally.... but its not a reason to eschew the use of physics to make things even better next time - if you have the means.

There was no FOH support, just a PA for vocals only. To make matters worse, there was no "room"; it was an outdoor thing.

Yes, I do have the means. I'm also turning 40 in a couple of days. Birthday present to myself? Starting to strongly consider it.

 

[iualum]

I don't think I've ever heard ANYONE make this argument against mixed cabs. And in fact I would disagree that it's an issue and go even further and say it's actually the reverse, in that with 2 different cabs, you are going to have a large area of overlap, combined with generally at least some space on either end which only one cab occupies. What this typically does is give you a wider, and (usually) flatter system response. Which naturally makes it EASIER to EQ. A perfect example is my own main setup. My vintage Trace 2x10 sounds cool by itself, but it has a sort of unusual upper midrange response. While it's generally cool, it definitely works better for some tones than others. However, when you add either my EV or JBL 15 in, a few things happen. First, the peaks and dips of the speakers tend to flatten each other out somewhat. So that response of the Trace is made more subtle, just giving the overall sound a nice character. The 15 (either of them) also has more low end, due to the fact that the excursions are higher, and their frequency responses are lower than the 10s. Plus, it's taking 1/2 the burden of volume and low end off the 10s, so they are much happier in terms of power application.

Usually in these fundamentalist "mixing is of the devil" kind of threads, the matched cabs mafia brings up the spectre of the twin bogeymen of phase response and dispersion. These can be important components of your overall resoponse, or they might not really matter at all depending on the gear you are using and the situations you use it in. For instance if you come to DC and play in any of a number of typical venues that are all about 15 feet wide and 60 feet long, dispersion is really going to be of minimal importance. Pretty sure the people in the opposite back corner from your bass rig are going to hear you just fine. Probably too much bass if anything.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, if you're playing a 60-100 foot wide mega festival stage, then dispersion doesn't matter again because you just have a wall of cabs 15 feet wide and if you stay in front of them you will hear yourself JUST fine.

In the middle, it gets a little more complex, but those "bogeymen" are GENERALLY not nearly as important as they are made out to be, certainly not over overall good tone, price, power handling system frequency response, etc...

Many proponents of mixing like to characterize it in this "mixing is of the devil" way. But if someone looks through the myriad "mixing" threads, & evaluates them honestly, I think he'll find very few anti-mixing guys adopt this attitude. They argue that if someone likes mixing, have at it, but that if the guy compares the "mixed" cabs to "doubled-up identical" cabs, he'd much more often prefer the matching format. Yes, dispersion/phase response are mentioned (& I think both are very valid). But just as often, it has to do picking any single box whose tone you like very much & doubling up on it. The more (of your favorite tone) the merrier.