until i get another 15 i use a 2x10 vertical . at last nights gig i set the 2x10 up towards the back of the deeper(in dimention) ph 15 and went for a wireless wander and it sounder OK. i then moved the 210 to the front of the 15 and there was a much fuller tone. i got my git player to confirm the difference.i now realize what a complex thing this audio stuff is. i have been playing bass for about 46 years and am still learning. its great.thanks to all you TB folks.
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Question for the matched cabs crowd
- Thread starter Bassist4Eris
- Start date
Being they were all Carvin 10's they may've been pretty well matched aside from the power handling, which is pretty much a non-issue with the small amp, but, it does seem you may've been running your amp below 4 ohms. Those older GK's are pretty tough amps and could handle a little "oops" like that for a short time, but you'll likely end up blowing your amp if you continue to play it like that.
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
- 29,772
- 30,452
- Disclosures
- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
I mix cabs
Most of the time there is no problem
Some mixes work better than others
Just make sure all the cabs are the same ohms and don't go under 4 ohms.
I have 3 2x10 cabs, 2 1x15 cabs, and 1 1x18 cabs. All cabs are 8 ohms. Any 2 cabs make for a 4 ohm load. My Ampeg heads work well with 4 or 8 ohm loads. I get more volume with 2 cabs. The 10s and 18s work good together. The 15s work better with other 15s or by themselves, and the 10s work better with 2 2x10 cabs together. The 18 works good with the 10s but not by itself.
All of the cabs are designed and built by me. They were based on existing successful designs that were already out there.
With my Ampeg B2r head and a 2x10 and a 1x18 I can keeep up with an Ampeg SVT. If I need more power I run a second B2 head as a slave an hook up 2 more speaker cabs. With 3 ampeg heads I can run all 6 speaker cabs for a wall of sound. Can you say overkill?
Most of the time there is no problem
Some mixes work better than others
Just make sure all the cabs are the same ohms and don't go under 4 ohms.
I have 3 2x10 cabs, 2 1x15 cabs, and 1 1x18 cabs. All cabs are 8 ohms. Any 2 cabs make for a 4 ohm load. My Ampeg heads work well with 4 or 8 ohm loads. I get more volume with 2 cabs. The 10s and 18s work good together. The 15s work better with other 15s or by themselves, and the 10s work better with 2 2x10 cabs together. The 18 works good with the 10s but not by itself.
All of the cabs are designed and built by me. They were based on existing successful designs that were already out there.
With my Ampeg B2r head and a 2x10 and a 1x18 I can keeep up with an Ampeg SVT. If I need more power I run a second B2 head as a slave an hook up 2 more speaker cabs. With 3 ampeg heads I can run all 6 speaker cabs for a wall of sound. Can you say overkill?
Very often, I believe, guys who say they like mixing cabs say so because, yes, it's 2 cabs rather than 1. It's louder & so is equated with better. For example, there's a 210 & 115 available & they get hooked up. Voila! Wow! That sounds better than either individually (the volume thing). So, mixing cabs is super.
Now I'll plead guilty to the louder is better way of thinking (or at least the potential of more volume
), but again, the tone of two 210s (louder than a single 210) or two 115s (louder than a single 115) is preferable to a 210/115 combo.
OP here. Yes, I'm back already. No, I haven't been on TB all day, but I did spend quite a bit of time on the stickies, getting a basic education in ohms, watts, and all that good stuff. I haven't *completely* wrapped my head around it yet, but I will.
In playing bass for 24 years, I have played through a whole bunch of stuff, considering all the backlines, rehearsal space amps, studio amps, friends' amps, etc I've used over the years. Long ago I came to the conclusion that GK head + Carvin 4x10 is the perfect combination for me. This is why it's very tempting for me to pick up a couple of Carvin 2x10s. In this way I could experiment, in real playing situations, with vertically stacked 2x10s compared to a single 4x10, and make up my own mind. If I end up liking the 4x10 better, I can always sell one of the 2x10s and keep the other. It could come in handy as part of a mini-rig for smaller gigs.
As far as the mixed vs matched argument goes, I think both sides have good points. I do my best to be skeptical, and like the idea of testing things out for myself. But to be honest, I am very unlikely to ever use a mismatched rig as my main rig, simply because a pair of 2x10s is the largest "stack" I want to transport. Remember, the rig described in my original post was a combination of my cab and another player's. I personally have no interest in schlepping anything larger than my 4x10 to a gig. That means a pair of 2x10's would be fine. But a 2x10 plus a 15? That's more than I really want to carry. 4x10 plus 18 (which I actually own) is way out of the question.
In playing bass for 24 years, I have played through a whole bunch of stuff, considering all the backlines, rehearsal space amps, studio amps, friends' amps, etc I've used over the years. Long ago I came to the conclusion that GK head + Carvin 4x10 is the perfect combination for me. This is why it's very tempting for me to pick up a couple of Carvin 2x10s. In this way I could experiment, in real playing situations, with vertically stacked 2x10s compared to a single 4x10, and make up my own mind. If I end up liking the 4x10 better, I can always sell one of the 2x10s and keep the other. It could come in handy as part of a mini-rig for smaller gigs.
As far as the mixed vs matched argument goes, I think both sides have good points. I do my best to be skeptical, and like the idea of testing things out for myself. But to be honest, I am very unlikely to ever use a mismatched rig as my main rig, simply because a pair of 2x10s is the largest "stack" I want to transport. Remember, the rig described in my original post was a combination of my cab and another player's. I personally have no interest in schlepping anything larger than my 4x10 to a gig. That means a pair of 2x10's would be fine. But a 2x10 plus a 15? That's more than I really want to carry. 4x10 plus 18 (which I actually own) is way out of the question.
Tangential or not, I'm glad you brought it up. I've been considering getting a pair of 2x10's and stacking them vertically. You seem like one of the brighter bulbs around here, so I'm glad to get your input on that.
I claim no particular expertise. I know only what I've been able to glean from lurking on the threads in which the genuine experts have shared what they know. It was time well spent, IMHO...
MM
While the point you're making would seem to make sense on the face of it, in actual practice it rarely works that way. Unless you're using cabs that have been carefully designed to work together as a system - i.e. with drivers specifically selected for the purpose, cabs built to optimize the performance of those specific drivers, and a crossover(s) developed to function optimally with all those other particular components - the sources of frequency overlap are more likely to interfere with each other, rather than to complement each other, thereby resulting in dead spots (phase cancellations), and hot spots (phase duplications). Using unmatched cabs, the extent to which you might experience such problems is difficult to say. It's really kind of a crap shoot.
There's nothing "fundamentalist" about the point I'm making. I'm advocating a set of best practices that can be thoroughly backed up by science. A genuinely "fundamentalist" approach would be to take a rigidly dogmatic stance against the scientific findings - based only upon stubborn ideology.
Yet, we find ourselves in further agreement than you might have supposed. For no one is making the case that unmatched cabs never sound good - only that the results can be unpredictable, and therefore difficult to replicate. While a sound physicist or an audio research engineer might be able to isolate and control for the myriad factors that can predict whether or not two or more unmatched cabs will produce satisfactory results, the ordinary musician is typically much better off by simply playing the odds, and going with a set of matched cabs.
MM
{Rude comments in this paragraph redacted by Moderator}
MM, my experience has been exactly as I described earlier. I will say it's more of a "sure thing" with guitar rather than bass, in the realm of mixing speakers (but in that case often just various different 12s, which tends to even out the sound quite a bit).
Sure, bass can be a little trickier for a variety of reasons. But sound reproduction is a series of choices based on various compromises. Which compromises you choose will depend on your resources, your circumstances, and your personal tastes and goals. Some people might prefer an inexpensive rig that still has a wide frequency response that's relatively smooth and open sounding, while someone else might prefer a more "pure" sound.
Bottom line is there are a TON of different factors that go into selecting a speaker system for MI reproduction, and the issues that favor matching cabs are but a SMALL slice of that pie.
Honestly, my ideal is probably a 2x15 loaded with some really good sounding drivers (probably part way between vintage and modern sounding), with a nice tweeter or midrange with a level control, in a properly sized box to get some good low end out of it and get rid of the boominess that comes with a lot of cabs. But that's because that's the sound that works for me. Adn I hope to have that in the not too distant future. But I still plan to keep my "mixed" Trace cabs, the single EV 15, and my old Acoustic 106, because they all sound great in their own ways, and that Trace 2x10 blends really well with the Trace or the EV/JBL 15s.
Someone else would probably feel differently, but that's why I advocate experimentation with ALL reasonable options, not just the ones that have been sanctified by the Matching Cabs Mafia cabal. There's no substitute for personal experience and research to help someone figure out what it is they like, and sometimes more importantly, what they don't like.
MM, my experience has been exactly as I described earlier. I will say it's more of a "sure thing" with guitar rather than bass, in the realm of mixing speakers (but in that case often just various different 12s, which tends to even out the sound quite a bit).
Sure, bass can be a little trickier for a variety of reasons. But sound reproduction is a series of choices based on various compromises. Which compromises you choose will depend on your resources, your circumstances, and your personal tastes and goals. Some people might prefer an inexpensive rig that still has a wide frequency response that's relatively smooth and open sounding, while someone else might prefer a more "pure" sound.
Bottom line is there are a TON of different factors that go into selecting a speaker system for MI reproduction, and the issues that favor matching cabs are but a SMALL slice of that pie.
Honestly, my ideal is probably a 2x15 loaded with some really good sounding drivers (probably part way between vintage and modern sounding), with a nice tweeter or midrange with a level control, in a properly sized box to get some good low end out of it and get rid of the boominess that comes with a lot of cabs. But that's because that's the sound that works for me. Adn I hope to have that in the not too distant future. But I still plan to keep my "mixed" Trace cabs, the single EV 15, and my old Acoustic 106, because they all sound great in their own ways, and that Trace 2x10 blends really well with the Trace or the EV/JBL 15s.
Someone else would probably feel differently, but that's why I advocate experimentation with ALL reasonable options, not just the ones that have been sanctified by the Matching Cabs Mafia cabal. There's no substitute for personal experience and research to help someone figure out what it is they like, and sometimes more importantly, what they don't like.
Hi, OP here again. I got a chance to examine the other guy's 2x10 in person tonight. It's a 4 ohm cab. To recap: I had that, plus my 8 ohm 4x10, plugged into a GK400RB, which is rated for 4 ohms. I'd like to revisit a couple of posts in light of this info.
Sounds like what I had was bass-ackwards.
Apparently so. But my guitar player told me a couple of things tonight that contradict this. He owns his own recording studio and does live sound all over the area, so I usually figure he knows what he's talking about. This time, I'm not so sure. He said that a 4 ohm cab plus an 8 ohm cab gives you 6 ohms, which is fine for a 4 ohm head. I have a feeling that the math here is a bit trickier, but I can't wrap my head around it. Anyhow CL400Peavey wasn't the only poster to say that a 4 ohm cab plus any other cab brings the impedance below 4 ohms, bad news for the head. THEN, my guitar player said that such things don't matter so much with solid state, and are only crucial with tube amps. Bluntly, I think he's full of it. Any thoughts?
Sounds like what I had was bass-ackwards.
Apparently so. But my guitar player told me a couple of things tonight that contradict this. He owns his own recording studio and does live sound all over the area, so I usually figure he knows what he's talking about. This time, I'm not so sure. He said that a 4 ohm cab plus an 8 ohm cab gives you 6 ohms, which is fine for a 4 ohm head. I have a feeling that the math here is a bit trickier, but I can't wrap my head around it. Anyhow CL400Peavey wasn't the only poster to say that a 4 ohm cab plus any other cab brings the impedance below 4 ohms, bad news for the head. THEN, my guitar player said that such things don't matter so much with solid state, and are only crucial with tube amps. Bluntly, I think he's full of it. Any thoughts?
Thanks for the replies. Downunderwonder, I'm going to go ahead and admit that I can't figure out the formula. I never got past precalc and dropped physics in sheer frustration, and that was 20 years ago besides. But I believe you. I seem to remember running across something like that in the stickies, but I was just as mystified then. Here's what I *do* understand: if I want to plug two cabs into my 4 ohm head, they better BOTH be 8 ohms. And that's more than I understood when I started this thread. Thanks ya'll.
There is a lot of good science supporting the matches cabs route. Having agreed to that I don't believe the science says anything one way or another about some of the following notions:
- because they are both Carvin they are probably well matched.
- mismatched cabinets are more likely to work against than with each other (emphasis on the more)
- inconsistency depending on listening position. (Applies very well to building a line array but not related directly to phase response issues related to time rather than position)
Please filter the science down to make a more concise discussion.
Thanks for once again humoring my pet peeves.
- because they are both Carvin they are probably well matched.
- mismatched cabinets are more likely to work against than with each other (emphasis on the more)
- inconsistency depending on listening position. (Applies very well to building a line array but not related directly to phase response issues related to time rather than position)
Please filter the science down to make a more concise discussion.
Thanks for once again humoring my pet peeves.
Thanks for the replies. Downunderwonder, I'm going to go ahead and admit that I can't figure out the formula. I never got past precalc and dropped physics in sheer frustration, and that was 20 years ago besides. But I believe you. I seem to remember running across something like that in the stickies, but I was just as mystified then. Here's what I *do* understand: if I want to plug two cabs into my 4 ohm head, they better BOTH be 8 ohms. And that's more than I understood when I started this thread. Thanks ya'll.
How about a rule of thumb then? If you add impedance's, the result will always be less than the lowest impedance.
However, your "if I want two cabs they had better both be 8 ohms" is also a good rule
How about a rule of thumb then? If you add impedance's, the result will always be less than the lowest impedance.
However, your "if I want two cabs they had better both be 8 ohms" is also a good rule
How about the corollary rule: buying a 4 ohm cab is like buying a one bedroom condo.
I am probably going to be mismatching cabs this weekend. Outdoor gig. Chance of rain. We will be under a big tent, but not sure if there will be a stage. Ground is already wet.
I will still bring my iAMP combo, but probably one of my other 12" cabs since I don't want to put a wizzy directly on the wet ground. The CXL-112 is a good bet right now since I already now it works well with the 12" in the combo.
I would normally bring my CXL-112, my LDS 12/6, and my backup amp but my backup amp is down right now. The CXL and the LDS work great together. I worked with Don to pick something to specifically work with the CXL.
I will still bring my iAMP combo, but probably one of my other 12" cabs since I don't want to put a wizzy directly on the wet ground. The CXL-112 is a good bet right now since I already now it works well with the 12" in the combo.
I would normally bring my CXL-112, my LDS 12/6, and my backup amp but my backup amp is down right now. The CXL and the LDS work great together. I worked with Don to pick something to specifically work with the CXL.
That is what I thought until I bought an svt 2. Then you need four ohm cabs! It will only do 2 or 4 ohm loads. Its crazy. I guess they mostly made it for the fridge.
