Question on Arpeggios (Theory)

[JoZac21]

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO. The 3rd of an E mixolydian scale is a G#, not an Ab.

Yeah, already fixed that... realized my mistake pretty quickly on that one lol.

 

[dougjwray]

Umm... hate be a buzz kill, but technically the V chord in Aeolian (the Minor Key) is a minor chord still... G# major can be used as a modal substitution chord, but the V chord would still be naturally a minor chord (in C# minor the 3rd of your V chord is B, not C)... the G#maj chord comes from E mixo, not E aeolian... sorry if I come across snobbish, I just don't want any false info passed on to the OP.

I think you meant to say "in C# minor the 3rd of your V chord is B, not B#"

 

[JoZac21]

I think you meant to say "in C# minor the 3rd of your V chord is B, not B#"

lol... thanks.

 

[Russell L]

I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but G#maj is the IIImaj chord if you're playing in E mixolydian... the chord may in fact not be a III- chord. Answer being, if the guitar player, or whatever harmony instrument you're playing with has a major 3rd on that G# chord, play the major 3rd (C in this case) in your arpeggiation, it should sound correct... the rest of the progression then works out to be VI-, V7/I... all kosher in the world of mixo!

Wait now, lemme see. The E mixolydian scale is:

E F# G# A B C# D(natural)

If we base our iii-chord on those notes, it comes out to be diminished. (G# B D).

I still see the G# major chord discussed here as the secondary dominant of the vi-chord in the key of E major.

 

[JoZac21]

Wait now, lemme see. The E mixolydian scale is:

E F# G# A B C# D(natural)

If we base our iii-chord on those notes, it comes out to be diminished. (G# B D).

I still see the G# major chord discussed here as the secondary dominant of the vi-chord in the key of E major.

You're absolutely right... it is V/VI... I take everything I said back... that's what you get for trying to think theory while having your first cup of coffee lol... OP, listen to Russell... it's V/VI.

 

[Russell L]

You're absolutely right... it is V/VI... I take everything I said back... that's what you get for trying to think theory while having your first cup of coffee lol... OP, listen to Russell... it's V/VI.

First cup? Late gig last night, huh? It's lunchtime on the east coast, LOL. I'm on my fifth (of coffee, that is).

No prob, this stuff gets confusing fer sure. Cheers.

 

[Stick_Player]

Umm... hate be a buzz kill,

Umm... hate kill your buzz kill.

Do not confuse Aeolian with Natural Minor.

I just don't want any false info passed on to the OP

I agree, completely.

In the initial OP's progression, there 'appeared' to be all Major chords - E, G#, C#, B.

Staying ALL in the key of E Major, both the G# and C# would be Minor chords.

However, it is quite possible that the G# could be a Major (not a lot of info from the OP) and could then be labeled as a V/I or V/i.

 

[Jibudo]

Umm... hate be a buzz kill, but technically the V chord in Aeolian (the Minor Key) is a minor chord still... G# major can be used as a modal substitution chord, but the V chord would still be naturally a minor chord (in C# minor the 3rd of your V chord is B, not C)... the G#maj chord comes from E mixo, not E aeolian... sorry if I come across snobbish, I just don't want any false info passed on to the OP.

It's really common,if not always, to change the v in aelion to V (or even V7), making the song became tonal and minor. People have done that in the past 500 years to increase the tension in V-i progressions. There is no false info in that.

 

[Snarf]

Don't think of theory as rules. It is not "wrong" to play something outside of a key. Nothing is ever "wrong" or "right" in music. In this case, yes, the C found in the Ab chord is outside of the key of E, so your chord progression is not in the key of E. And that's fine, music does not need to be strictly in a key.

"Theory" would probably say you are switching keys to Ab major when you move to that chord, and then back to E when you're playing the E again.

So I'd say try arpeggiating both major and minor and see what sounds better. I'm guessing major will sound better since that's the underlying chord, but it all depends on what sound you're going for.

There absolutely IS right and wrong in music. Not all music is atonal improvisation. If it was, then you'd be right. But it's not.

 

[anonymous122511]

There absolutely IS right and wrong in music.

Nothing is absolute.
There are rules that define specific forms or genres or styles of music. Breaking those rules without knowing them is a fool's path but at some point of accomplishment it does become acceptable to break them.

 

[Snarf]

Nothing is absolute.
There are rules that define specific forms or genres or styles of music. Breaking those rules without knowing them is a fool's path but at some point of accomplishment it does become acceptable to break them.

This is true. Breaking rules once you know them is okay. But people need to REALLY know the rules and RESPECT them before they start breaking them. Most of the people that break the rules THINK they know them, but they actually don't, and they end up sounding like idiots. But then you get the Stravinsky's and the Schoenberg's and the Zappa's that can do anything they want.

 

[Russell L]

Umm... hate kill your buzz kill.

Do not confuse Aeolian with Natural Minor.



I agree, completely.

In the initial OP's progression, there 'appeared' to be all Major chords - E, G#, C#, B.

Staying ALL in the key of E Major, both the G# and C# would be Minor chords.

However, it is quite possible that the G# could be a Major (not a lot of info from the OP) and could then be labeled as a V/I or V/i.

Far as I know, the Aeolian mode is the Natural Minor scale. However, don't confuse either of those with the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales.

 

[anonymous122511]

Far as I know, the Aeolian mode is the Natural Minor scale. However, don't confuse either of those with the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales.

They may have the same notes but it would be misleading to say they are the same "scale". Context is everything here.

 

[Otso]

Far as I know, the Aeolian mode is the Natural Minor scale. However, don't confuse either of those with the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales.

There's the Aeiolian mode and then there's minor. In minor the selection of notes is natural, harmonic and melodic combined. The raised notes of the harmonic and melodic scales serve a purpose as leading tones. At least in classical harmony. A minor v chord in minor isn't even considered a dominant chord.

 

[Russell L]

I don't understand. Both have b3, b6, and b7. As for context, I know how it's different to renumber the chords, and that you get a minor v-chord (Dorian does that, too). If the notes are the same, what is it about the context that makes it different?

 

[Stick_Player]

Otso is correct!

Far as I know, the Aeolian mode is the Natural Minor scale. However, don't confuse either of those with the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales.

Same series of pitches but not the same function. When harmonizing the Natural Minor scale, specifically the Fifth Step, one uses the leading tone to produce a Major chord.

Example with an "A Natural Minor Scale" (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A) would be to have an E7 (E, G#, B, D) for the Dominant, or a G#º (G#, B, D) for the Leading Tone Chord. The G# comes from either the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales. One can also find Dominant Minor Ninth chords (i. e., E7-9 - E, G#, B, D, F). One could also find a Subtonic chord (G, B, D). But RARELY would one find a "v chord" in one of the Minor modes. IF someone can find an example of a "v chord" (E, G, B) used in a Minor mode, post it as an exception.

Alterations when using the three Minor scales often occur with in the same piece.

Simply based on the definition of a Dominant chord, there must be a Major Third, and add a Minor Seventh to create a Dominant Seventh chord (with the Tritone) if one wants to.

In Aeolian mode, sure, the "v chord" exists. If it also includes a Minor Seventh (E, G, B, D in "A Aeolian") it could be called a Nondominant Seventh if it resolves to the Tonic.

Nondominant Seventh chords are an entirely different subject.

Aeolian mode and Minor mode(s) do not function the same.

 

[Russell L]

Thanks, I see where you're coming from. I was just concentrating on the fact that the notes were the same in both scales alone.

In my blues band we do some minor blues that goes i-iv-v, using a minor v-chord, but I don't know if that fits in with what you're saying. After all, the guitars are playing a lot of pentatonic minor riffs, and what runs or passing notes I do on bass are usually based on Dorian (since I like it so much).

If we wanna get even more confused, try reading the history behind the creation of scales and modes. I can't remember half of it. Then, let's not forget about how Melodic minor (and I think Harmonic minor?) are supposed to descend like natural minor. Duh.

Anyway, thanks for the help in clarifying this.

 

[Snarf]

Otso is correct!



Same series of pitches but not the same function. When harmonizing the Natural Minor scale, specifically the Fifth Step, one uses the leading tone to produce a Major chord.

Example with an "A Natural Minor Scale" (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A) would be to have an E7 (E, G#, B, D) for the Dominant, or a G#º (G#, B, D) for the Leading Tone Chord. The G# comes from either the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales. One can also find Dominant Minor Ninth chords (i. e., E7-9 - E, G#, B, D, F). One could also find a Subtonic chord (G, B, D). But RARELY would one find a "v chord" in one of the Minor modes. IF someone can find an example of a "v chord" (E, G, B) used in a Minor mode, post it as an exception.

Alterations when using the three Minor scales often occur with in the same piece.

Simply based on the definition of a Dominant chord, there must be a Major Third, and add a Minor Seventh to create a Dominant Seventh chord (with the Tritone) if one wants to.

In Aeolian mode, sure, the "v chord" exists. If it also includes a Minor Seventh (E, G, B, D in "A Aeolian") it could be called a Nondominant Seventh if it resolves to the Tonic.

Nondominant Seventh chords are an entirely different subject.

Aeolian mode and Minor mode(s) do not function the same.

THIS. END OF DISCUSSION.

Except for this aside: The V minor chord is rare and is only encountered in non-functional modal music. To all the newbies: don't get hung up on V minor chords, they're not as important as learning the functionality of minor keys and their true dominants.

 

[Stick_Player]

In my blues band we do some minor blues that goes i-iv-v, using a minor v-chord

Not sure if I have played a Minor Blues without the V7 (major triad with a Minor Seventh).

A simple 12-Bar Minor Blues Form usually follows this progression - in E Minor for you guitar-dudes:

||: Em | Em | Em | Em | Am | Am | Em | Em | C | B7 | Em | Em :||

For you music theory-heads:

||: i | i | i | i | iv | iv | i | i | VI | V7 | i | i :||

B. B. King's version of "The Thrill is Gone" might be one of the more famous 12-Bar Minor Blues.

Of course one can modify this progression by altering the V7 (i.e., V7 +5 b9), or adding a sixth to the "iv chord", or make the VI a Dominant Seventh sound (i.e., C7 - which I believe could be explained as a 'German Augmented Sixth Chord' - C, E, G, A# ), or......

 

[Dertygen]

Also, I'm aware of the "no right or wrong" business. But sometimes I like to dig into some theory and see what I can see, ya know?

... then the madness begins!