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Question on Arpeggios (Theory)

#61
>>>All of this detailed explanation is fun for theory wanks like me,
but it's impractical as an answer to "what do I play here?"
(Answer: play the chords as written, don't worry about the key so much.)<<<

Well, when someone asks, and they really wanna know...
 
#62
mambo4 said:
it's extremely common to break the "rules" of diatonic harmony
by using a Major or Dominant 7th chord in place that "should" use minor chords -simply because its sounds good.
I doubt most songs written this way were done with any deeper analysis than that...
IOW It's not G# major because " its the secondary dominant of the vi chord (V/vi), dude!" but because "that sounds cool, dude!"
QUOTE]

Exactly! This is the point I was trying to make when I brought up my old classical teacher going into contortions trying to justify the IV7 chord in a blues progression as a "V7 of bVIII"! :D
In Western classical music, ignoring "proper" voice leading and functional harmony because "that sounds cool, dude" pretty much started with Debussy (as far as I know) but it obviously exists in LOTS of other music.
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#67
i feel bad for those that don't know theory - there's so much right and wrong theory in this thread. it's gotta confuse the daylights out of some poor souls.

those that don't know theory and are blowing smoke should post a warning. LOL. Not said in arrogance - just feel bad for the newbies that won't know who to believe and who not to...
 
#69
Art Araya said:
i feel bad for those that don't know theory - there's so much right and wrong theory in this thread. it's gotta confuse the daylights out of some poor souls.

those that don't know theory and are blowing smoke should post a warning. LOL. Not said in arrogance - just feel bad for the newbies that won't know who to believe and who not to...
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It's a good thing if it inspires them to seek out a teacher. It doesn't need to be a bass player either, this stuff is universal for all instruments. I'd rather study with a pianist or horn player who's a great teacher than a bass player who can't give clear explanations. Last lesson I took a few months ago was with a guitarist.
 
#70
another consideration is that the patterns of theory overlap and map onto each other almost incestuously.
Thus there are a number of ways to look at G# maj showing up in the key of E, all of which are valid,
but if you only know part of the theory you may mistakenly look for the "correct" analysis.

this variety of possible interpretations is why I favor the "dude, that sounds cool" and "just play the chords" interpretation :)
 
#71
mambo4 said:
another consideration is that the patterns of theory overlap and map onto each other almost incestuously.
Thus there are a number of ways to look at G# maj showing up in the key of E, all of which are valid,
but if you only know part of the theory you may mistakenly look for the "correct" analysis.

this variety of possible interpretations is why I favor the "dude, that sounds cool" and "just play the chords" interpretation :)
Click to expand...

Agreed.
My own story is that I earned a B.A. in Music (all classical) at an excellent school (two of my professors were students of Stravinsky, etc.), then I went to Berklee College of Music for two semesters... I placed out of the harmony requirements, and immediately proceeded to the two most advanced harmony courses they offered.
After this, I went pro (starving pro, that is) and starting playing in a duo with a fairly reknowned acoustic singer/songwriter. He knew zero theory, and liked to write by using strange open tunings and a capo, and finding cool chord progressions by serendipity. Naturally, this led to a few months of me saying, "But you can't do that!" and "But-- that's not a chord!" like an idiot. Eventually, I saw the light and resorted to using my ear to find nice places for the bass to go in his music. Mind you, I still drew on "schooled" concepts (like contrary motion and an awareness of "low interval limits"), but when he came up with "no-no" chords, I didn't bother analyzing them into a corner... there was no need. All I had to say was, "Dude, that sounds cool."
 
#72
Doug, that's a good example of what many of us who have been "schooled" go through. I find it difficult and awkward sometimes when playing with folks to explain something without sounding like a know-it-all jerk. Or, at least I'm always afraid someone will think I am. Then, again, I've heard folks put down theory as if it took away from music somehow (which just shows how they miss the point entirely). I think those types have some kind of self-esteem problem, though. But, it's nice to know what's what about the music, I think, even if there's no need to explain it. I've played for years with different guys who don't know anything about theory, but are great players nonetheless. Heck, I was like that myself when I taught myself to play, way back. Rather than comment much, I just play. Once in awhile I might say something if I think they would like to know, or if there's some peculiar need. Nicely, of course.
 
#73
Sorry, i am too lazy to read all the posts...

You are on the key of E (I), then you go to G# (III), that should be minor, but it isnt because the music is modulating to C#m, and now the G# is major because it is the V of the new key (C#m) then you go to C#m (new I) and then B (the V of E) and then, E again.
 
#74
Russell L said:
Doug, that's a good example of what many of us who have been "schooled" go through. I find it difficult and awkward sometimes when playing with folks to explain something without sounding like a know-it-all jerk. Or, at least I'm always afraid someone will think I am. Then, again, I've heard folks put down theory as if it took away from music somehow (which just shows how they miss the point entirely). I think those types have some kind of self-esteem problem, though. But, it's nice to know what's what about the music, I think, even if there's no need to explain it. I've played for years with different guys who don't know anything about theory, but are great players nonetheless. Heck, I was like that myself when I taught myself to play, way back. Rather than comment much, I just play. Once in awhile I might say something if I think they would like to know, or if there's some peculiar need. Nicely, of course.
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I do the same thing. Right now, I'm playing in one band where the guitarists like to call the IV chord in Eb a "G#" :) and I keep my mouth shut out of kindness and also because I don't want to seem like a pompous, didatic jerk. However, I'm the go-to guy when they need someone to figure out a tricky chord progression in a song we're going to cover, and I'm happy to do that.
Also, I always think about how the great innovators of the past certainly had stodgy "schooled" folks around them telling them that what they were doing was wrong. When I'm playing with writers who aren't schooled, but come up with fresh sounding stuff, I definitely don't want to be one of those stodgy guys.
 
#75
dougjwray said:
I do the same thing. Right now, I'm playing in one band where the guitarists like to call the IV chord in Eb a "G#" :) and I keep my mouth shut out of kindness and also because I don't want to seem like a pompous, didatic jerk. However, I'm the go-to guy when they need someone to figure out a tricky chord progression in a song we're going to cover, and I'm happy to do that.
Also, I always think about how the great innovators of the past certainly had stodgy "schooled" folks around them telling them that what they were doing was wrong. When I'm playing with writers who aren't schooled, but come up with fresh sounding stuff, I definitely don't want to be one of those stodgy guys.
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I hear ya, Doug. I don't tell anyone they're wrong when they come up with something original. Sometimes it's more tricky, though, when we're playing a known tune and someone has the changes wrong. (That's the case now in a song that uses Dm, but someone is playing F major---I can let it go, ya know, if the lowest F they play doesn't interfere with my lowest D for the root. No prob if it all comes out to be Dm7). However, if someone asks a question, I'm more than glad to explain. I enjoy it. And I enjoy when I play with guys who do know theory so we can talk about it.

Hey, but like I tell everyone, you don't HAVE to know it to play good music and be a good player. But it really does help you know what's happening, it helps creativity, and helps if you're writing. Anyone will benefit from it, and progress faster.
 
#76
Russell L said:
I hear ya, Doug. I don't tell anyone they're wrong when they come up with something original. Sometimes it's more tricky, though, when we're playing a known tune and someone has the changes wrong. (That's the case now in a song that uses Dm, but someone is playing F major---I can let it go, ya know, if the lowest F they play doesn't interfere with my lowest D for the root. No prob if it all comes out to be Dm7). However, if someone asks a question, I'm more than glad to explain. I enjoy it. And I enjoy when I play with guys who do know theory so we can talk about it.

Hey, but like I tell everyone, you don't HAVE to know it to play good music and be a good player. But it really does help you know what's happening, it helps creativity, and helps if you're writing. Anyone will benefit from it, and progress faster.
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100% in agreement.
I also speak up if notes are clashing, or if a certain anticipation is crucial, and one guy is hammering away on the downbeat. The issue of not stifling creativity doesn't really factor in if you're playing "Sweet Home Alabama" and one guy thinks it's D | C | F. :D
 
#77
Sorry, i am too lazy to read all the posts...

You are on the key of E (I), then you go to G# (III), that should be minor, but it isnt because the music is modulating to C#m, and now the G# is major because it is the V of the new key (C#m) then you go to C#m (new I) and then B (the V of E) and then, E again.
Click to expand...

Ditto.

To the Ab/G# debate. It is G#.

Yes, there can be a G# MAJOR chord. And as stated above, it is the Dominant Seventh of the Relative Minor Key of C#. I don't know if it is really a modulation, but perhaps it is. If one is going to arpeggiate this chord, use these notes: G#, B#, D#. Add an F# to make it a Dominant Seventh, if you want.
 
#78
I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but G#maj is the IIImaj chord if you're playing in E mixolydian... the chord may in fact not be a III- chord. Answer being, if the guitar player, or whatever harmony instrument you're playing with has a major 3rd on that G# chord, play the major 3rd (C in this case) in your arpeggiation, it should sound correct... the rest of the progression then works out to be VI-, V7/I... all kosher in the world of mixo!
 
#80
Stick_Player said:
Ditto.

To the Ab/G# debate. It is G#.

Yes, there can be a G# MAJOR chord. And as stated above, it is the Dominant Seventh of the Relative Minor Key of C#. I don't know if it is really a modulation, but perhaps it is. If one is going to arpeggiate this chord, use these notes: G#, B#, D#. Add an F# to make it a Dominant Seventh, if you want.
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Umm... hate be a buzz kill, but technically the V chord in Aeolian (the Minor Key) is a minor chord still... G# major can be used as a modal substitution chord, but the V chord would still be naturally a minor chord (in C# minor the 3rd of your V chord is B, not C)... the G#maj chord comes from E mixo, not E aeolian... sorry if I come across snobbish, I just don't want any false info passed on to the OP.
 

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