Question on Arpeggios (Theory)

[RJjr.]

I couldn't figure out how a G sharp major chord would fit in with the tonic, six, and five chords so I went and played it and it sounded pretty good although it would be nice to hear some other chords between the six and the five (unless it's a turnaround I guess) The G sharp major chord is just a iii minor chord with a raised third. It leads to the next chord which is the six chord. It's what they call a secondary dominant chord and is analagous to playing V to I. You could even throw in a seventh with your secondary dominant which in this case would be an F sharp. Also when you play the G sharp major chord it sounds like an extension of the previous tonic chord with a raised five so it doesn't sound jarring and then it resolves nicely. You also get an interesting chromatic effect from the B in the tonic to the B sharp in the 3 chord. I'll have to remember all this when I'm playing around with chord progressions.

Extra junk: what I meant by the III major being an extension with a raised five is if you play the two chords as one it comes out to be a
Imaj7#5. Also, it sounds a lot nicer if you play a ii minor chord after the six chord. The 6 chord is a perfect fourth below the 2, and then
ii-V(7)-I is a very common progression in jazz tunes. Now, that I think of it this whole progression (with the ii) must be a pretty common progression.

 

[pin_head_47]

the one thing i absolutely hate hate hate when i get a new sheet of music on my gigs is when people mix idioms. in the key of E, it's G#, not Ab. period. the sooner you quit mixing idioms, the better off you will be.

I think the main reason that new players get so caught up with mixing them is because they haven't become proficient at reading sheet music yet. When you're looking at a simple lead sheet, this may not be a big deal, but when written on a staff it means EVERYTHING to know the correct key that you're in. It'd be a real nightmare to have to keep guessing what's what if the key wasn't laid out for you to begin with.

Here's another good tidbit: since the number of sharps or flats are always directly related to the key, you can find the key of a piece of sheetmusic automatically just by looking at the number of sharps or flats laid out in the beginning, and then you're set. This is why learning to read can help you so much, not JUST by being able to read, but all the theory that comes along with it.

 

[JimmyM]

pin head, right you are. but i'll tell you...i've gotten sheet music that mixes idioms from people who should know better, so it's definitely not limited to newbies.

 

[Jim Campbell]

the one thing i absolutely hate hate hate when i get a new sheet of music on my gigs is when people mix idioms. in the key of E, it's G#, not Ab. period. the sooner you quit mixing idioms, the better off you will be.

is it the arrangers being lazy or just today's overall lack of effort,or what.....i would think the guys that do your charts would/should know better.....i can see the Ab major in the context of a key change,but i would expect that change to appear on the page....

 

[RJjr.]

How about these changes similar to the original here: I-IV-III-VI-ii-V-I. The I to the IV and the III to the VI is a nice little harmonic sequence I think although some ears might prefer the diatonic vi chord.

 

[JimmyM]

is it the arrangers being lazy or just today's overall lack of effort,or what.....i would think the guys that do your charts would/should know better.....i can see the Ab major in the context of a key change,but i would expect that change to appear on the page....

i don't know, jim. one guy who's done it is a very talented musician. i would like to think it isn't laziness on his part, but maybe these guys just get so accustomed to making everything flat keys (like saying Gb instead of F# even though F# is infinitely easier to write charts in) that he sticks to it when writing.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

i don't know, jim. one guy who's done it is a very talented musician. i would like to think it isn't laziness on his part, but maybe these guys just get so accustomed to making everything flat keys (like saying Gb instead of F# even though F# is infinitely easier to write charts in) that he sticks to it when writing.

I know of a few brass arrangers who do this sometimes Jimmy, like you say very experienced and talented. I have always thought it is just a bad habit they hold when the move out of their comfort zone due to the instruments they mainly arrange and transpose for are dominated by flat keys.

 

[wumusic]

Let's say I'm creating a bass line to a song that's in the key of E major. The main chord progression of the song is simple, just E major, Ab major, C# minor and B major. So...

E - Ab - C# - B

I wanted to use a lesson on creating bass lines with arpeggios for this one. The question I have is that the arpeggio shape for the Ab is a minor (being that it is the 3rd of the major scale) but the chord in the song is an Ab major.

So I shouldn't arpeggiate that Ab as a minor, I should arpeggiate it as a major? But that then uses a C, which is not part of the E major scale.

Can anybody shed some light on this?

Hi Dan,
Back to your first inquiry on suggestions for creating a bassline over that chord patter in E, I would try playing around using the III major mode, phrygian. This mode, in that key, would use the following notes:

G#-A-B-C#-D#-E-F#

(the B in this case is what makes that G#min chord you're playing over minor)

Phrygian uses very similar intervals to a harmonic minor, save that the second interval is a half-step. So, the fretboard pattern should be nearly identical to that of a harmonic minor.

I've found some decent examples of modal playing on YouTube on the channel DanaBGoods.

Hope this helps. Have fun with it.

Personally, I just wrote my basslines to a new tune my guitarist brought solely thinking about the modes over his chord progressions. It was a refreshing way to approach writing as I usually just play what I'm "singing" in my head when writing.

 

[pin_head_47]

That makes sense, if he's a horn player as opposed to a keys or some kind of string player. I remember when I was transitioning from tuba to bass and I had a hard time getting used to playing in sharp as opposed to flat keys (still do sometimes).

 

[JTE]

See, this kind of confusion is the result of learning theory in bits and drabs without a consistent plan or structure. If the OP had learned theory in a logical order, this thread would never have appeared.

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
If the OP knew this he'd understand the Whole-steps and half-steps which would lead to knowing not only THAT the key of E has no Ab, but WHY it's that way. It's NOT arbitrary. Think it through- if you're writing music you don't want to be constantly using the same space and/or line for two different notes so you use each letter only once. Start at E go a whole step- that's gotta be F# or Gb, right? But we've not use the letter F yet so it's F#! Continue that and you get the whole scale of E F# G# A B C# D# and E.

2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc. This gives you the tools to find the notes to most common chords quickly and efficiently. Yeah, it takes some work, but it's a LOT better than trying to memorize what an Abmin7b5 is, or even memorizing the notes in all 12 major triads. Learn the formulas and work them out for yourself (a big reason I abhor those "10,000 chord" books and charts).

3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds. If you learn to HARMONIZE the scale you'll not only learn that the iii chord is G#min7, but WHY!!!! Don't memorize this stuff, learn the why and you'll be able to figure out the what.

Take your C scale and write it out... I mean it, get some paper and a pencil and WRITE IT OUT

C D E F G A B C

Now, write it out again, right above it but starting on the third- you should get this....

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

NOW, do it again, offsetting the third line by a third also to get...

G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And one more time to get...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


THIS is WHY the I and IV are major chords, the V is a dominant 7, the ii, iii, and vi are minor 7, the vii is a minor 7 b5 or half-diminshed. If you don't know the why you'll be mislead into thinking the third chord in E is an Ab7 instead of knowing it's a G#min7.

4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

John

 

[RJjr.]

Hi Dan,
Back to your first inquiry on suggestions for creating a bassline over that chord patter in E, I would try playing around using the III major mode, phrygian. This mode, in that key, would use the following notes:

G#-A-B-C#-D#-E-F#

(the B in this case is what makes that C# chord you're playing over minor)

Phrygian uses very similar intervals to a harmonic minor, save that the second interval is a half-step. So, the fretboard pattern should be nearly identical to that of a harmonic minor.

I've found some decent examples of modal playing on YouTube on the channel DanaBGoods.

Hope this helps. Have fun with it.

Personally, I just wrote my basslines to a new tune my guitarist brought solely thinking about the modes over his chord progressions. It was a refreshing way to approach writing as I usually just play what I'm "singing" in my head when writing.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around what you're getting at here. You're saying he could play the G sharp phrygian over the III (maj) chord in the key of E? In other words play a B when the rest of the band is playing a B sharp? Is there something I'm too dense to understand here? Oh, well, it won't be the first time.

 

[wumusic]

I'm trying to wrap my mind around what you're getting at here.

I typoed. I meant to type G#min. I was thinking ahead to the next chord in Dan's example, C#.

You're saying he could play the G sharp phrygian over the III (maj) chord in the key of E?

I'm saying that he could use those notes from the phrygian mode when trying to figure out what arpeggio he wants to play over that chord (G#min), in that key (E).

In other words play a B when the rest of the band is playing a B sharp?

Nope - again, I typoed. Thanks for pointing it out. I will correct it in the original post to avoid further confusion.

Is there something I'm too dense to understand here?

Nope - it's my bad.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

See, this kind of confusion is the result of learning theory in bits and drabs without a consistent plan or structure. If the OP had learned theory in a logical order, this thread would never have appeared.

I have to agree John, as i learned it through tetrachord theory it makes logical sense to write it out and fell how it is constructed.
see the link if anyone want to read more.

Link Removed

 

[Russell L]

It has been correctly established in this thread that the Ab chord is properly called G# in the key of E. It is further inferred that the chord is in fact a triad in this case, being as it is simply labelled as "Ab", (G#, that is). It has also been correctly stated that the iii-chord (notice the lower case Roman numerals) in the key of E is normally minor when using only the notes of the E major scale (diatonic). But, since the chord is G# major instead (III, capital Roman numerals), it may also be called the "Five of Six Chord." Confused? That is, if you were playing in C#, G# is the V-chord. In this case the progression does in fact go to the vi-chord in the key of E (C#m). Another chord that works the same way is called "V of ii" where the same principle applies. It is a very common harmonic practice. There is also a "V of iii." These chords are generally known as "secondary dominant chord" since they can easily employ a dominant 7 in them, just like a dominant (V) chord often does.

The reason that the note, C, is called B# in the G# triad is that it has to be called some kind of 3rd, not a 4th. Remember, in any chord, from 1 to 2 is a whole-step, from 2 to 3 is a whole-step, 3 to 4 is a HALF-STEP, 4 to 5 is a whole-step. If you look at a regular G triad it is G B D. Taking the whole thing up a half-step puts sharps on all three notes to keep the interval spacing the same. Thus, G# B# D#. C# is the 4th.

 

[wumusic]

The reason that the note, C, is called B# in the G# triad is that it has to be called some kind of 3rd, not a 4th. Remember, in any chord, from 1 to 2 is a whole-step, from 2 to 3 is a whole-step, 3 to 4 is a HALF-STEP, 4 to 5 is a whole-step. If you look at a regular G triad it is G B D. Taking the whole thing up a half-step puts sharps on all three notes to keep the interval spacing the same. Thus, G# B# D#. C# is the 4th.

Thanks Russell. That's really insightful!

 

[dougjwray]

Some good information here, and some bad (or sloppy).
Maybe I can bring some sanity.
In rock music, it's extremely common to find chord progressions that don't stay diatonic.

Painfully simple example: The coda of the Beatles' "Hey Jude." If it's in G major (I can't quite recall), the chords are G major / F major / C major.
F major is not diatonic in the key of G major.
Paul and the gang used their ears to play their parts.

You're welcome.

 

[RJjr.]

Some good information here, and some bad (or sloppy).
Maybe I can bring some sanity.
In rock music, it's extremely common to find chord progressions that don't stay diatonic.

Painfully simple example: The coda of the Beatles' "Hey Jude." If it's in G major (I can't quite recall), the chords are G major / F major / C major.
F major is not diatonic in the key of G major.
Paul and the gang used their ears to play their parts.

You're welcome.

Couldn't the F chord be thought of as a G 11 with a flat 7 (GBDFAC)? In other words a substitution chord to break the monotony of one long tonic to the fourth then back to the tonic? Basically a plagal cadence which has a very church like quality. I'm sure McCartney wasn't thinking in terms of a superimposed chord with it's bottom three notes left out. I think he wanted that falling feel of the F in the bass going to the C and back to the G and the Fmaj chord just sounded right for that.

Let me try to be more clear. I'm saying that the whole thinhg is just one long I to a IV then back to I. The other chord is for color. Does that make some kind of sense?

 

[dougjwray]

Couldn't the F chord be thought of as a G 11 with a flat 7 (GBDFAC)? In other words a substitution chord to break the monotony of one long tonic to the fourth then back to the tonic? Basically a plagal cadence which has a very church like quality. I'm sure McCartney wasn't thinking in terms of a superimposed chord with it's bottom three notes left out. I think he wanted that falling feel of the F in the bass going to the C and back to the G and the Fmaj chord just sounded right for that.

Let me try to be more clear. I'm saying that the whole thinhg is just one long I to a IV then back to I. The other chord is for color. Does that make some kind of sense?

There's no G in that "Hey Jude" chord. But you can make sense of it any way you'd like. A classical guy would call the F major a "V of bIII." It would be a secondary dominant (except that it's a triad). When I was getting my undergraduate degree in music at a 100% classical institution, a teacher actually labelled the IV7 chord in a blues progression "the V7 of bVII" Of course, it never went to the bVII, and any blues musician will tell you that the IV chord is there to simply go away from the I for awhile. It's not a secondary dominant!
What I was trying to get the OP to do was to realize that music has all kinds of different rules and genres, and since what really matters is how things SOUND, he could use his ear and not worry so much about why the "Ab" [sic] chord in an E major progression might be major instead of minor. It happens daily in rock music.
Hope I wasn't too harsh at any point.

 

[Russell L]

Songs all over the place use non-diatonic harmony. Nothing new there. What's hard is trying to explain it when the listener doesn't know theory.

Doug's example above of the ending of Hey Jude is an example. At that point in the song, the harmony is G Myxolydian. The Myxolydian employs a lowered 7th scale step from the major scale. In the key of G the 7th note of the G major scale is F#. When the chords go to F major, it is a triad based on F instead of F#. Also, if you add an F to a G-chord it makes it G7 (which means "containing a lowered 7th," also known as a "dominant 7"). If you add the regular 7th note of the G major scale to a G-chord it makes it Gmaj.7 (the 7th note of a major scale is said to be the interval of a major 7 up from the root). A regular 7 is a "major 7." A 7 lowered one half-step is called a "minor 7." A 7 lowered two half-steps (one whole step) is called a "diminished 7" (same note as a major 6, but labelled as using the alphabet letter of the 7th scale step---a major 6th is a whole step below a major 7th).

Shew, I went too far huh? or did I?

 

[DaveyM69]

What you've got there is *almost* a classic cycle of fifths progression:

E G# C# (F#) B ...

It's very normal for minors/majors to be swapped around to give harmonic movement to a piece along with added 7ths to aid the flow (and other extentions too!).

The above will work great with any combination - try it. Keep the B as major (probably a B7 - the dominant 7th) and then the others can be any mix of majors and minors and sound great. Then you can experiment with adding 7ths/major 7ths, altering fifths etc...

That's jazz man!