Questions about the Early 70s Muscle Car Experience

[El Güero]

Yeah, now that you mention it, the iconic GTO Judge was 1969 or '70, right?

I know you weren't talking to me, but it's my understanding that the main years for the GM cars were the '68-'72 A-bodies, with earlier cars coming in second. I don't know if the F-47 suspension package was offered on the earlier cars. One of the easy ways to tell a clone (aka fake) SS Chevelle was to look for a rear sway bar. Unless I'm wrong about this, regarding the '68-'72 cars...
No rear sway bar = no SS

 

[Mike N]

I know you weren't talking to me, but it's my understanding that the main years for the GM cars were the '68-'72 A-bodies, with earlier cars coming in second. I don't know if the F-47 suspension package was offered on the earlier cars. One of the easy ways to tell a clone (aka fake) SS Chevelle was to look for a rear sway bar. Unless I'm wrong about this, regarding the '68-'72 cars...
No rear sway bar = no SS

My 68 ElCamino does not have a rear swaybar, and there's no provision for it..... the lower control arms are not drilled for it, yet the car still retains the factory 12 bolt rear.

I know for a fact that my car is a real SS, being the first three digits of the VIN are 138.

Thru 1968, an SS could be identified by 138 in the VIN. From 69 on, you really need a build sheet to be sure.

 

[El Güero]

My 68 ElCamino does not have a rear swaybar, and there's no provision for it..... the lower control arms are not drilled for it, yet the car still retains the factory 12 bolt rear.

I know for a fact that my car is a real SS, being the first three digits of the VIN are 138.

Thru 1968, an SS could be identified by 138 in the VIN. From 69 on, you really need a build sheet to be sure.

I remember reading about people swapping VIN's on cars to make a more believable clone. The VIN will define how it was made. Maybe that rear sway bar applies only to Chevelles, and not El Caminos? I don't know, but iirc the SS cars came with the F-47 package, which included a bigger (1 1/8"?) front sway bar, stiffer front and rear coil springs, and rear sway bar with the necessary rear lower control (aka trailing) arms. Pretty sure they all had 12-bolt rears, but don't know if the rear was part of the F-47. Many non-SS cars had 12-bolt rears.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Some of you guys are probably the perfect age where you were about twenty when 1970 hit so I'm sure to get some good advice here. It must have been an interesting time when cars were finally being built for speed.

I absolutely love the styling of many of these cars during that era and I've just closed the deal of a lifetime and I'm looking to finally buy a muscle car. I've been looking at a 70 Chevelle, a 73 Plymouth Duster and a 73 Pontiac GTO, the Judge model. There are lots of good-looking rebuilds out there with a variety of different traits quality and pricing. I plan to make it my weekend driver.

I really like the 70 SS Chevelle , with the 454 big block engine. Man I just love that crackle from the exhaust. I have seen some with the original 350 engine, but because of the weight of those cars, I've read that it's not enough power. Is that the case? I know it will still have nice pickup, but not the kind of power and crackle that I think I'm looking for. Also many of the examples I'm seeing have automatic transmissions, sometimes only three speed. Does it not make any sense at all to buy a car with that size engine only to make it an automatic? Is it lame to buy an automatic car like this?

The GTO came with a 400 cubic inch engine and sounds pretty nasty, and even the 340 on the Duster sounds pretty good though still I'm worried about the power and the experience. I believe those put out mid 250 horsepower Max. I found a beautiful example of a Chevelle thats comes with an LS2 Corvette engine, and that sounded bad ass also but is it a bad investment to buy an older car like that that doesn't have the original engine or at least a rebuild of the original engine? The positives on this particular car is that those Corvette engines are pretty reliable and 400 + pounds of torque and horsepower isn't too bad.

And while I have the money, I'm not trying to go nuts here, I want to still buy for value and perhaps some appreciation. The 70 Chevelles w the 454 are almost double (50K) the Duster and GTO (25k) for a good specimen. I realize the Chevelle is legendary though. Most of what I seen seems to have period correct trimmings outside of additional gauges in the dash... like upholstery redone to look exactly like the original, excetera.

If you guys were looking for a car like this, and were me, what direction would you go? What would you look for? And also please feel free to make other car suggestions!

View attachment 3795967

any the wiser yet?

My 68 ElCamino does not have a rear swaybar, and there's no provision for it..... the lower control arms are not drilled for it, yet the car still retains the factory 12 bolt rear.

I know for a fact that my car is a real SS, being the first three digits of the VIN are 138.

Thru 1968, an SS could be identified by 138 in the VIN. From 69 on, you really need a build sheet to be sure.

are El Caminos not all what we call ''utes''? Ie integral pickup bed body on sedan chassis? Maybe they never bothered with rear sway bars on utes?

 

[Mike N]

I remember reading about people swapping VIN's on cars to make a more believable clone. The VIN will define how it was made. Maybe that rear sway bar applies only to Chevelles, and not El Caminos? I don't know, but iirc the SS cars came with the F-47 package, which included a bigger (1 1/8"?) front sway bar, stiffer front and rear coil springs, and rear sway bar with the necessary rear lower control (aka trailing) arms. Pretty sure they all had 12-bolt rears, but don't know if the rear was part of the F-47. Many non-SS cars had 12-bolt rears.

To a point the VIN will decide what the car originally was. Up until and including 1968, the SS package was a separate model of the base Chevelle, so it was easily identifiable by the VIN. From 69 on, the SS package was merely an option on the base model, so the VIN could only tell you if it was a 6 cylinder car or a V8. But, the V8 could have been anything from a 307 to a 454. Even if you look for the 12 bolt rear, the 3/8" fuel line and the 6500 rpm redline in the tach, all those are easily faked......you really need a build sheet to authenticate a 69 on up SS.

Fwiw, my ElCamino does not have the 1 1/8" front swaybar. 68 was the first year of the SS package on the ElCamino, my car is one of 5200 SS cars built that year, out of a total run of 43,000 ElCaminos. Maybe GM dropped the ball on all the typical SS stuff for my car, being the first year and a limited run.

 

[Mike N]

any the wiser yet?
are El Caminos not all what we call ''utes''? Ie integral pickup bed body on sedan chassis? Maybe they never bothered with rear sway bars on utes?

Yes, the ElCamino is a 'ute in the land down under. I can't recall ever seeing a rear swaybar on one of them.

 

[El Güero]

Maybe GM dropped the ball on all the typical SS stuff for my car, being the first year and a limited run.

Maybe GM figured it didn't need it...just guessing the EC has less weight on the rear tires, so that might change suspension requirements.

Did later SS EC's have the rear bar?

 

[Downunderwonder]

Yes, the ElCamino is a 'ute in the land down under. I can't recall ever seeing a rear swaybar on one of them.

Ute is more correctly punctuated as ut' short for utility vehicle.

 

[Pilgrim]

 

[Basshappi]

Some of you guys are probably the perfect age where you were about twenty when 1970 hit so I'm sure to get some good advice here. It must have been an interesting time when cars were finally being built for speed...…

.........And while I have the money, I'm not trying to go nuts here, I want to still buy for value and perhaps some appreciation. The 70 Chevelles w the 454 are almost double (50K) the Duster and GTO (25k) for a good specimen. I realize the Chevelle is legendary though. Most of what I seen seems to have period correct trimmings outside of additional gauges in the dash... like upholstery redone to look exactly like the original, excetera.

If you guys were looking for a car like this, and were me, what direction would you go? What would you look for? And also please feel free to make other car suggestions!

View attachment 3795967

One of those was almost my first car.
Considering my sixteen year old self at the time, it's probably a very good thing I didn't end up with it. I probably wouldn't have survived the experience!
If I had the chance now....Oh Hell yeah!

 

[buldog5151bass]

Yes, the ElCamino is a 'ute in the land down under. I can't recall ever seeing a rear swaybar on one of them.

By any chance have you heard anything about when and how the Ranchero and El Camino are being brought back? I've read some reports, but nothing definite. Supposedly Ford is looking at a lower price (about $20k), and Chevy is looking at something more expensive.

 

[El Güero]

A little OT

 

[Mike N]

Maybe GM figured it didn't need it...just guessing the EC has less weight on the rear tires, so that might change suspension requirements.

Did later SS EC's have the rear bar?

Not sure. I can't recall ever seeing one with it.

 

[Mike N]

By any chance have you heard anything about when and how the Ranchero and El Camino are being brought back? I've read some reports, but nothing definite. Supposedly Ford is looking at a lower price (about $20k), and Chevy is looking at something more expensive.

Didn't GM already try with the SSR?

Too bad it was overweight at 4700 lbs, overpriced at $42k and really nothing to look at. No wonder it flopped after a few years.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Didn't GM already try with the SSR?

Too bad it was overweight at 4700 lbs, overpriced at $42k and really nothing to look at. No wonder it flopped after a few years.

Since I would love to see a car based pickup (living in the sticks, it would be good to have something I could use to carry firewood and such), I've been looking. Seems like rather than something crazy like the SSR, they are looking at a ute - something the original Ranchero and El Camino started as.

 

[Funky Ghost]

I'm going to be Mr Reality here. It pains, but needs must...

If you want a 70's era muscle car, go for the one that looks and sounds the best to you. Simple as that. The reality is, nearly all modern cars, including a lot of econo boxes, will out perform the 70's car in nearly all areas.

Looks,
Sound and fury.
Done.

The more popular 70's cars are going to be insanely expensive if it's a decent turn key purchase. Even project cars can be prohibitive.

When I sold the last of my project cars ( 1965 6 cyl Mustang ) in 2000 I got $6200. It ran, had a blown exhaust gasket ( because they ALWAYS blow out... ) and had all original, perfect body panels which I had block sanded and puttied, and primed. It was ready for paint.

I HATED the way it drove. Driver position was crap. Handling was crap. Breaks were crap. AC was crap ( dealer added under dash unit ) All the components except the AC were new . . .

Having said that, I do miss a few I owned and the one I would entertain having again would be a 70 - 73 Camaro. Mine ( A 1973 ) started with a 305 which blew. I put a '65 327 camel hump head in it, put a new cam, headers intake and carb. I put Poly urethane ( HOLY HELL did they squeak! ) components through out my complete front end rebuild with handling my primary goal. I was going to do a bit of SCCA driving with it. I added a Super T10 and auburn 4:10s in the diff. It was a wonderful street car that handled like a dream, pulled like a freight train and was able to go on runs to Santa Cruz without making me feel like I was going to break down somewhere or need to do yoga after driving 3 hours in it. The only vanity mods I did was to add the split bumper from a 70 1/2 Camaro and a fiberglass 2 inch cowl hood ( my first and only fiberglass hood... what a nightmare to get it right . . . seriously. ) because I loved the look.

I love all the old hot rods. I've owned an awful lot of them, but my 55 year old ass is far to used to the modern cars

 

[kesslari]

According to Wikipedia the bodies of 69 Torino and Fairlane had the same codes. Choice of sports back and regular two door. Different motors and trim but 428 Cobras were undifferentiated between Torino and Fairlane again. What a bird's nest. That black one could be anything!

Thid Fred Eaglesmith tune features a "Cobra Jet 428 in a '65 Ford and it ran great".

 

[Paulabass]

My two cents- Modern muscle cars have air conditioning, cruise control, power seats and windows, tons of HP, and parts are avail. I recently sold my Charger R/T. Fast as stink, and never spent a day in the shop. Vintage muscle is cool if you like driving on weekends, and fixing during the week.

 

[Hot Rats]

Some of you guys are probably the perfect age where you were about twenty when 1970 hit so I'm sure to get some good advice here. It must have been an interesting time when cars were finally being built for speed.

I absolutely love the styling of many of these cars during that era and I've just closed the deal of a lifetime and I'm looking to finally buy a muscle car. I've been looking at a 70 Chevelle, a 73 Plymouth Duster and a 73 Pontiac GTO, the Judge model. There are lots of good-looking rebuilds out there with a variety of different traits quality and pricing. I plan to make it my weekend driver.

I really like the 70 SS Chevelle , with the 454 big block engine. Man I just love that crackle from the exhaust. I have seen some with the original 350 engine, but because of the weight of those cars, I've read that it's not enough power. Is that the case? I know it will still have nice pickup, but not the kind of power and crackle that I think I'm looking for. Also many of the examples I'm seeing have automatic transmissions, sometimes only three speed. Does it not make any sense at all to buy a car with that size engine only to make it an automatic? Is it lame to buy an automatic car like this?

The GTO came with a 400 cubic inch engine and sounds pretty nasty, and even the 340 on the Duster sounds pretty good though still I'm worried about the power and the experience. I believe those put out mid 250 horsepower Max. I found a beautiful example of a Chevelle thats comes with an LS2 Corvette engine, and that sounded bad ass also but is it a bad investment to buy an older car like that that doesn't have the original engine or at least a rebuild of the original engine? The positives on this particular car is that those Corvette engines are pretty reliable and 400 + pounds of torque and horsepower isn't too bad.

And while I have the money, I'm not trying to go nuts here, I want to still buy for value and perhaps some appreciation. The 70 Chevelles w the 454 are almost double (50K) the Duster and GTO (25k) for a good specimen. I realize the Chevelle is legendary though. Most of what I seen seems to have period correct trimmings outside of additional gauges in the dash... like upholstery redone to look exactly like the original, excetera.

If you guys were looking for a car like this, and were me, what direction would you go? What would you look for? And also please feel free to make other car suggestions!

View attachment 3795967

I take it you are a bass player and you asked for suggestions, so mine would be to look at any '65 - '71 station wagon version of the muscle cars of those years. Many have the motor you want and you can haul your gear. Sleepers.

 

[Funky Ghost]

I take it you are a bass player and you asked for suggestions, so mine would be to look at any '66 - '69 station wagon version of the muscle cars of those years. Many have the motor you want and you can haul your gear. Sleepers.

Love the way you think. Gimme an Olds Vista Cruiser with a 455 like my Dad had.