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Quick Red Llama caps/mods question

bongomania

bongomania

Commercial User
Oct 17, 2005
35,688
3,917
PDX, OR
www.ovnilab.com
Disclosures
owner, OVNIFX and OVNILabs
#1
I just picked up a Llama Rojo by Lenahan, and it appears to be faithful to the schematic at GGG ( http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_whrl_sc.pdf )and elsewhere, except for one electrolytic cap which is 100uF instead of the 330uF shown on GGG.

It seems like the low end on this one is not quite as deep as the Polish Love I borrowed. Should I swap in that 330uF cap? Should I increase the value of the input cap? Are there other known mods for improving the low end on these?

Thx!

P.S. It otherwise sounds identical to the Polish, but with IMO a more useful range of control on the pots.
 
#2
I built a Red Llama from Tonepad (which has nearly all the same component values as the ggg version), but mine still sounds pretty farty with the 330uf cap. It plays pretty well on the A string and above, but sounds pretty weak on the E string. I tried a .1uf cap in the input (the Tubesound Fuzz value), but that didn't seem to help. Maybe 1uf or higher would fatten it up sufficiently.
 
#5
Wounded Paw said:
That 330uf cap is only there for filtering the DC power supply. It cannot make any difference to the sound. 330uf or 100uf will filter out any ripple in the DC power just as well.
The input cap C1 which is 0.068uf does seem a little low for bass but that's just from a quick glance at the schematic.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It probably doesn't even need to be that high. I would swap out C1 and C3 with larger caps. Those are your bottlenecks for low end. I'd try 0.1uF myself.
 
#6
Hey Bongo,

Do you have the Llama up and running? The reason I ask is that it is towards the top of my OD list. Well actually a Mojo Hand Mule is, which is supposed to be a very faithful copy. What do you think of the general character of the pedal? Is it responsive to playing dynamics? Can it do lower gain OD's at all?

Thanks,

Proton
 
#7
Yeah, I just swapped C1 and C3 with .1uF "orange drops", and that did the trick! It sounds fantastic. I didn't test after doing just one, so I don't know if changing both was necessary, but I'm quite pleased with the results regardless.

Proton, this is my favorite overdrive ever. At low gain it is nice and snarly-tubey (not the fat, mellow sort of tube sound) yet the bass's tone is not obscured. At higher gain it turns into a good-sounding fuzz, however it loses lows at those settings. Up to about "noon" on the drive knob (on this one anyway) the lows are great, now that I've done the cap mod. I would describe the overall sound as bright and gritty, yet not obnoxiously harsh, and more "natural" sounding than most typical buzzy-hard clipping OD's. It puts me in mind of Geddy and Chris Squire. It is very responsive to playing dynamics. It also adds a very useful and pleasant amount of compression.

Downsides: It is a bit noisy. Not bad, but about the same noise level as the VT Bass pedal or a similarly-driven real tube amp. And it really only has one low-gain OD sound. If you like that one sound as much as I do, then that's not a problem. But if you want versatility and a range of low-gain OD qualities, then I'd recommend a Holy Fire instead.

There are lots of clips of it available here--most of them are in the threads about the "Bogdan", "Li'l Jovi", or "Polish Love" pedals, which are all the same pedal with random names, and it's the same circuit as the Red Llama.

I don't know whether the Mule will need or benefit from a mod to the caps. If you buy it new from Tone Factor, they would probably do that mod for you if they felt it would help.
 
#9
rcubed said:
I would swap out C1 and C3 with larger caps. Those are your bottlenecks for low end. I'd try 0.1uF myself.
Click to expand...

bongomania said:
Yeah, I just swapped C1 and C3 with .1uF "orange drops", and that did the trick! It sounds fantastic.
Click to expand...


Silent Fly said:
To improve the low frequency at high gain you may want to try 1uF for C1 and C3.

You can also try to substitute C3 with a resistor.
Click to expand...

Yep, he might want to try that. The resistor. :p



Speaking of the Llama, Bongo's tweeterless 15's and Proton Lenny's hifi rig- I imagine that pedal would sound a lot harsher through Lenny's rig, maybe even unpleasant? That's not to take anything away from Bongo's and others love for the pedal, but based on pure speculation, Im thinking the Polish Love might be a big much for Lenny; The Holy Fire on the other hand seems right up his alley, though I admittedly haven't heard any clips of the Holy Fire yet, just going off what I've read here on talkbass of its transparency and quiet operation. That and the shiny silver box- you know lenny has a thing for asthetics :smug:
 
#10
fightthepower said:
(...)Speaking of the Llama, Bongo's tweeterless 15's and Proton Lenny's hifi rig- I imagine that pedal would sound a lot harsher through Lenny's rig, maybe even unpleasant?(...)
Click to expand...

If it sounds too harsh, you can try increase C5 and C2. You can also add a switch that attaches an extra capacitor of the same value in parallel to C5 (and/or C2).
 
#11
you know lenny has a thing for asthetics
Click to expand...

Glad to see that my reputation precedes me. :smug: I love the look of the Holy Fire actually. However the Power supply thing would be a little annoying because with my Eventide, my PP2+, my RC-20xl, and my eventual filter I already have 4 dedicated power supplies. I'd really like to plug this OD into the PP2+. Also, I almost need a smallish pedal (i.e. Zvex, MXR, or normal sized like my Musket).

So the Bogdan, Polish Love, and Lil' Jovi are all Red Llama clones? I didn't know that. I'll have to listen to clips. I'm so confused when it comes to electronics and circuitry: so to possibly improve bass response, I'd want to ask or inquire about what? What is the definitive thing people have come up with here? There seems to be a few suggestions. Is it try a substitute C3 with a Resistor?

It is funny you mentioned my rig FTP. I hadn't even thought about the fact that I do have two mid driver's, and four domed tweeters total when I use both cabs. However, hopefully here in a week or two my Accugroove Synergy will be here, which might fatten up my sound a bit, and be a little more transparent than the TF. However, I might not like that, but I could really like having a tube pre.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail this thread. Back to caps, resistors, and other random technical jargon that I do not understand. :crying:

Ciao,

Proton
 
#13
As noted in my first post, the faithful Red Llama clone (with larger in and out caps) sounds identical to the Polish/etc. Also others here have stated that the Polish is not merely "inspired" but is a plain clone with one mod (the extra distortion switch).

About that resistor swap for C3... cognitive dissonance here. What would that achieve?
 
#16
bongomania said:
As noted in my first post, the faithful Red Llama clone (with larger in and out caps) sounds identical to the Polish/etc. Also others here have stated that the Polish is not merely "inspired" but is a plain clone with one mod (the extra distortion switch).
Click to expand...

I didn't have enough elements to say it for certain so I used the word "inspired". :)

On the other side... is a clone with one mod still a clone? ;)

bongomania said:
About that resistor swap for C3... cognitive dissonance here. What would that achieve?
Click to expand...

Essentially, with the resistor swap you remove the high-pass filter created by C3. The pedal should sound more transparent to the low frequencies.

You can also try to connect a resistor in parallel to C3. This would add more low frequencies leaving some filtering active.

Last but not least, you could set C3 to 33nF (as the Red Llama) and add a pot in parallel to C3 (around 10k should do the trick). Reducing the resistance of the pot would reduce the effect of C3.
 
#19
RCCollins said:
weeelllllll... not exactly. All of these, including the Red Llama, are "clones" of the "tube sound fuzz" from Craig Anderton's "Electronic Projects for Musicians".
Click to expand...

Which also features the "extra distortion switch" found on the Polish Love. As far as I can see the Bogdan pedal is pretty much a straight build of the Anderton project (with modern bypass/switching, LED, etc.)
 
#20
RCCollins said:
patent and copyright law says a definitive "yes"
Click to expand...

This has been discussed in depth in a lot of other places and I am not interested in adding further elements to this topic.

I recommend you explore the topic of patent and copyright laws further. I am not an expert on the subject but while you acquire more information about this you may also discover that the word "definitive" may not apply to audio device cloning.
 

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