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R.I.P. Amy Winehouse

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#221
essentre said:
I have a hard time finding her death tragic.
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Of course you can disagree, but any death that's not caused by age and it's health complications is considered tragic by most.

8 year old dies from cancer = tragic
42 year old dies from car crash = tragic
27 year old dies from drug abuse = tragic
89 year old dies from multiple failure = sad, but not tragic
 
#222
Some folks here will think I'm cold, I just paint a hard black and white line with addiction.

Her death probably fits the accepted definition of tragic to the letter. She was talented, I'll give her that, but I don't have any respect for her for that reason alone. If something was pointed out to me as being poison and I chose to ignore the facts, I wouldn't want the consequence to be considered tragic, but rather "expected".

Hit head with hammer....ouch, again....ouch....surprising?

While I'm not going to debate the definition of tragic, I will never agree to the "apples to apples" comparison of drug addiction to most types of cancer, especially juvenile oncology as it pertains to a perceived "tragic" loss of life.
 
#223
essentre said:
I have a hard time finding her death tragic. The only reason anyone even considers using that word is because she was so talented.
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I think the problem is that a whole bunch of folks think "tragic" means something different than it actually does.

Tragedy - A drama or literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances.


That is it.

Doesn't matter if the main character is a drug addict, a pedophile, or anything else. Tragic doesn't mean "a good person died".
 
#224
6jase5 said:
While I'm not going to debate the definition of tragic, I will never agree to the "apples to apples" comparison of drug addiction to most types of cancer, especially juvenile oncology as it pertains to a perceived "tragic" loss of life.
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Generally someone dying of cancer ISN'T tragic... because generally they aren't brought low through a consequence of their own personality/choice.

An 8 year old dying of cancer they contracted through no action of their own - not tragic by definition.

A 30 year old unable to overcome a moral failing and commits suicide - tragic by definition.
 
#226
6jase5 said:
Some folks here will think I'm cold, I just paint a hard black and white line with addiction.

Her death probably fits the accepted definition of tragic to the letter. She was talented, I'll give her that, but I don't have any respect for her for that reason alone. If something was pointed out to me as being poison and I chose to ignore the facts, I wouldn't want the consequence to be considered tragic, but rather "expected".

Hit head with hammer....ouch, again....ouch....surprising?

While I'm not going to debate the definition of tragic, I will never agree to the "apples to apples" comparison of drug addiction to most types of cancer, especially juvenile oncology as it pertains to a perceived "tragic" loss of life.
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No one offers you drug saying "want some poison?"
People say "it feels good, want some?"
The problem is the addiction and abuse. Some consider addiction to be a disease...

It's really no different from "hey, this is Coca-Cola, it tastes really good, want some?" and you starting drinking 30 cans of Coke per day and die in 5 years from diabetes... Is it? Sugar is a poison, just like aspirin or oxycontin... Fine if you do a little bit, deadly if you abuse it...
 
#227
aborgman said:
Generally someone dying of cancer ISN'T tragic... because generally they aren't brought low through a consequence of their own personality/choice.

An 8 year old dying of cancer they contracted through no action of their own - not tragic by definition.

A 30 year old unable to overcome a moral failing and commits suicide - tragic by definition.
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Then you really need to stop reading the dictionary so much.
 
#228
Quickie said:
Seriously? You would actually try to make a comparison with Amy?
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I'm not making ANY comparison.

I'm just pointing out that for a death to be a tragedy requires nothing in the way of "goodness" from the main character.

A tragedy has to do with the manner of one's downfall, not the character in question.

Whether the main character is an addict, pedophile, con man, priest, Rabbi, or the nicest person in the world... it's irrelevant to whether or not it was a tragedy.
 
#230
aborgman said:
I think the problem is that a whole bunch of folks think "tragic" means something different than it actually does.

Tragedy - A drama or literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances.
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I think we can agree that in this case "the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances."

Whatever.
To those of you who say it's no biggie, ask yourself how you'd feel if one of YOUR favorite talents suffered the same fate. A little different, perhaps?
 
#231
allexcosta said:
No one offers you drug saying "want some poison?"
People say "it feels good, want some?"
The problem is the addiction and abuse. Some consider addiction to be a disease...

It's really no different from "hey, this is Coca-Cola, it tastes really good, want some?" and you starting drinking 30 cans of Coke per day and die in 5 years from diabetes... Is it? Sugar is a poison, just like aspirin or oxycontin... Fine if you do a little bit, deadly if you abuse it...
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Agree. To note, nobody can claim that they didn't know that 30 cans of Coke per day was bad any more than they can claim that they didn't know that doing a lot of anything wasn't going to have a consequence. We are surrounded with knowledge of what is good and bad. It's what we chose to do with that knowledge.....and having 10 drinks a day is a choice in my opinion. Stressing "my opinion".
 
#232
JAUQO III-X said:
As a talent she really was.

Amy Winehouse was a talented artist with a problem.
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Ditto.

IMO, she was extremely soulful in an old-school way without being a slave to the genre. She avoided the over-the-top vocal gymnastics that the modern pop/r&b diva's seem best known for and had a wonderful grit to her voice. Our female lead singer put it nicely when she said that at a time when everybody sounds and looks alike Amy came along and gave us something new and fresh to listen to.

For those that haven't heard it, I suggest you might look up her wonderful rendition of 'To Know Him/Is To Love Him' and 'Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow'. Old songs reinterpretted respectfully and very musical, IMO. YMMV, etc.
 
#235
aborgman said:
I'm not making ANY comparison.

I'm just pointing out that for a death to be a tragedy requires nothing in the way of "goodness" from the main character.

A tragedy has to do with the manner of one's downfall, not the character in question.

Whether the main character is an addict, pedophile, con man, priest, Rabbi, or the nicest person in the world... it's irrelevant to whether or not it was a tragedy.
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Ok, thanks for the explanation. I don't agree, but thanks.
 
#237
aborgman said:
No - people need to start understanding what "tragedy" means and stop trying to use words where they aren't appropriate.
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dunham.jpg
 
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