Reading Standard Notation: Seeing intervals relative to key?

[OldSchoolFlats]

I really want to learn to read standard notation on bass, but want to get on the right track.

With clarinet or sax it was simple: one note on staff *always* was fingered the same way. With bass, though, there are options. Also, unlike sax or clarinet, it is easy to transpose by moving up or down X frets.

OK, now my question. I found standard notation for a favorite song of mine: “Give it to me baby” by Rick James. 4 sharps, so key of E major. Find the “Es” on the staff. See the intervals, relative to the E major scale. Easy! I’m pretty good with scales, modes and intervals, so I could actually see the connection between those scales I practiced so much, and the “written music” I had as a kid on sax/clarinet.

But too easy?

Does the above sort-of make sense, or is it really necessary to learn positions, Simandl, etc? I know I need to be more comfortable with knowing where ALL the notes are on the fretboard and staff (which I am working on), but I am hoping that “seeing the intervals/scale” relative to the key is a valid way to read bass.

I am worried with positional/Simandl type playing, I would always struggle remembering sharps and flats in keys other than C.

Hopefully my question makes sense...

 

[Malcolm35]

Not going to get into which is the best way. Here is what I do.

I use the major scale box pattern and one finger per fret method. Song is in the key of D so I put my major scale box's root, or tonic note on a D note. The notes of the D scale await me within the box. If I want minor scale I adjust, 3, 6 and 7 are flatted...

Next song is called to be in the key of C
I do the same thing but the box's root or tonic is now on a C, i.e I move the box to get the key of C notes. The box takes care of the correct notes for the key.

Once the box is placed I think of my comping intervals as Arabic number scale or chord tones, or Dm7 = R-b3-5-b7.

With Pentatonic R-2-3-5-6 I'm still in Arabic numbers. Find the key using A,B,C's then I'm back to Arabic numbers for my melodic notes, or chord tones.

Should mention most of what I do is using Nashville numbers.

Hope this helps... and you can use some of this.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Not going to get into which is the best way. Here is what I do.

I use the major scale box pattern and one finger per fret method. Song is in the key of D so I put my major scale box's root, or tonic note on a D note. The notes of the D scale await me within the box. If I want minor scale I adjust, 3, 6 and 7 are flatted...

Next song is called to be in the key of C
I do the same thing but the box's root or tonic is now on a C, i.e I move the box to get the key of C notes. The box takes care of the correct notes for the key.

Once the box is placed I think of my comping intervals as Arabic number scale or chord tones, or Dm7 = R-b3-5-b7.

With Pentatonic R-2-3-5-6 I'm still in Arabic numbers. Find the key using A,B,C's then I'm back to Arabic numbers for my melodic notes, or chord tones.

Should mention most of what I do is using Nashville numbers.

Hope this helps...

Are you describing your reading of chord-charts or standard notation (notes on bass clef)?

 

[Malcolm35]

Chord tones. You also asked about remenbering what flat/sharps would be in each key. The box, once placed, does this for you. That was my point.

Course you could use:
See God destroy all earth by f#irey c#haos. And
See fat cats go down alleys eating birds.
Or farmer Brown eats apple dumplings greasly cooked.

Ask Google.

 

[Papageno]

Yep. The fact that each note on can be played on (at least) 2 or 3 different places (except the 5 lowest notes of course), and any of the 4 fingers (+ sometimes the thumb) or as an open string, is really specific to string instruments.

It is both a blessing and a curse. Finding the best way of fingering a given musical phrase is a task that requires a perfect knowledge of the fingerboard (that's why it may appear daunting initially) and requires good musical taste.

Although patterns and boxes can provide some good starting point, it may also lock you into a system and result in repetitive predicible playing.

Ultimately, one may strive to attain complete freedom and fluidity on the fingerboard. One way to work on this is to practice scales and arpeggios with as many as possible different fingerings, over the entire fingerboard. Invent the fingerings yourself; do not read them from a book. This is what will enable you to discover what works well for you and what not. It is a slow process, but a very effective one.

 

[dreamadream99]

It quite makes sense to play intervallicly since that is the way we hear.

Long before I knew my entire fretboard, I would play basslines and melodies using relative intervals.

position shifting does indeed work for transposing on site. If the song is in C, and they want it in E flat, I shift up three frets, and pretend I’m still in C.

But when I am playing a song I have heard many times, I just find the next interval—Whether it is an open string or not. The key or hand position doesn’t really matter at that point.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Yep. The fact that each note on can be played on (at least) 2 or 3 different places (except the 5 lowest notes of course), and any of the 4 fingers (+ sometimes the thumb) or as an open string, is really specific to string instruments.

It is both a blessing and a curse. Finding the best way of fingering a given musical phrase is a task that requires a perfect knowledge of the fingerboard (that's why it may appear daunting initially) and requires good musical taste.

Although patterns and boxes can provide some good starting point, it may also lock you into a system and result in repetitive predicible playing.

Ultimately, one may strive to attain complete freedom and fluidity on the fingerboard. One way to work on this is to practice scales and arpeggios with as many as possible different fingerings, over the entire fingerboard. Invent the fingerings yourself; do not read them from a book. This is what will enable you to discover what works well for you and what not. It is a slow process, but a very effective one.

While not professional, I have been into music most of my life (starting with clarinet).

While I need some more time in the woodshed learning note-names higher on the fretboard, I did spend a lot of time learning/deriving scales and modes all over the neck. I did not just memorize patterns from books. I used them as guides, and derived my own.

My question was does it make sense to have a strong focus on seeing intervals, arpeggios and scales on the staff when reading music, rather than thinking strict "positions" and "standard fingerings" like taught in the Hal Leonard books? I think it does, but want to make sure I am not setting myself up to "hit a wall" in the future. Virtually all of my reading of sheet music has been on woodwinds, where the "one note, one fingering" rule applies. I never had formal training on strings.

 

[Papageno]

My question was does it make sense to have a strong focus on seeing intervals, arpeggios and scales on the staff when reading music, rather than thinking strict "positions" and "standard fingerings" like taught in the Hal Leonard books?

Yes, it does make a lot sense to think in terms of intervals, not instead of other standpoints, but in addition to them.

When reading a note on staff, it is useful (in my opinion, even necessary) to have in mind and/or ear simultaneously:
1. its properly spelled name (eg, C#, not to be confused with its enharmonic, Db)
2. its pitch
3. the various places where it can be played on the instrument (eg, 9th fret on E string, or 4th fret on A string for a low C#, or 11th fret on D string, or 6th fret on G string for a high C#)
4. its degree with respect to the root of chord being played (eg. major 3rd of A7)
5. its scale degree with respect to the tonal center of the moment (not to be confused with the root of the chord) (eg. major 7th of D harmonic or melodic minor).

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Yes, it does make a lot sense to think in terms of intervals, not instead of other standpoints, but in addition to them.

When reading a note on staff, it is useful (in my opinion, even necessary) to have in mind and/or ear simultaneously:
1. its properly spelled name (eg, C#, not to be confused with its enharmonic, Db)
2. its pitch
3. the various places where it can be played on the instrument (eg, 9th fret on E string, or 4th fret on A string for a low C#, or 11th fret on D string, or 6th fret on G string for a high C#)
4. its degree with respect to the root of chord being played (eg. major 3rd of A7)
5. its scale degree with respect to the tonal center of the moment (not to be confused with the root of the chord) (eg. major 7th of D harmonic or melodic minor).

For #5 above, by "moment", do you essentially mean "key"?
For example, if in the key of C major., D on the staff would be the 2nd note of the C major scale (ignoring the octave it is in)?

 

[mambo4]

I’m like the op where I see intervals on the staff. I check the key sig, run through the scale to get the map under my fingers , and from there I usually read one interval to the next.

but

more experienced and fluent readers than I have told me they see the note , know it by name, and their fingers go there- the step of interpreting relative intervals is left out.

 

[Papageno]

For #5 above, by "moment", do you essentially mean "key"?
For example, if in the key of C major., D on the staff would be the 2nd note of the C major scale (ignoring the octave it is in)?

What I mean by "tonal center of the moment" is the tonal center (aka tonic) of the key currently being played, which may change as the tune wanders through modulations. If the tune is in C major, but has modulated to D minor, the tonal center of the moment is D, even is the key signature is that of C major (no sharps and no flats), and if I read an F on the staff, it is the b3 (minor 3rd) of D (not the 4th of C, as the tune is not in C at that moment). Some tunes are somewhat ambiguous about the tonal center of the moment (do modulations of very short duration count as such?): it is up to you to decide how you hear it and understand it; in any case, it is useful to perform an harmonic analysis of the tunes you want to play.

 

[Papageno]

I’m like the op where I see intervals on the staff. I check the key sig, run through the scale to get the map under my fingers , and from there I usually read one interval to the next.

but

more experienced and fluent readers than I have told me they see the note , know it by name, and their fingers go there- the step of interpreting relative intervals is left out.

I think that approach works well on the bass, because it the most symmetrical and visual instrument in terms of how the notes are organized on the fingerboard (even the guitar is less convenient in that respect, due to the major 3rd between G and B strings, which breaks the symmetry). On keyboards, or on wind instruments, it is much less possible to use that approach. I believe it is perfectly functional for many purposes; however, this might become tricky with tunes that modulate a lot, or which are quite atonal.

 

[BarfanyShart]

With sight reading on string instruments it really helps to read entire phrases together so that you can visualize the correct hand position, string crossings, etc. I also came to bass from saxophone and it took me years to realize that reading note-to-note doesn't really cut it on bass. Also, classical guitar players are never really expected sight read their repetoire, they have to sit down with a pencil and work out their fingerings and hand positions ahead of time to play that music. Bass guitar lines are mostly simpler than classical guitar music, of course, but the technique and methodology is similar enough that you shouldn't get too frustrated if sight reading bass lines SEEMS LIKE it should be easier than it actually is - there are a lot more factors to keep in your head and hands when compared to piano or woodwinds

 

[HolmeBass]

I think there is some excellent advice in this thread, and an “all of the above” approach is probably the best.

I will add that reading on string instruments, especially guitar and bass, and probably cello, feel more difficult than reading on tuba. Even more difficult than piano. Because when you need to shift positions, particularly large shifts, you need to move your gaze further to hit the new position, and then back to the music. There also seems to be a need to read ahead a bit to not paint yourself into a corner positionally.

If I have time, and have some dots to read, I take it slowly and work out a strategy in advance. Then I try to learn the piece as I would learn it if I learned it by ear, which definitely involves thinking in terms of scales and intervals as well as note names.

If I have not taken the time to internalize it that way, I will not be able to transpose the piece on-the-fly, just off of the written music. If I found myself having to do that a lot it would take a lot of practice reading and transposing written music on the fly for me to even get to being bad at it.

I will also cheat and write the chords in above the staff to give me a handle if I get lost, I can improvise something close and hopefully pick the thread back up. But I find reading on electric bass to be very challenging. Then again, I don’t do it very much nor practice it much so no wonder it’s still hard for me.

 

[logdrum]

I am confused what is being asked and what is being answered.

One thing for sure fingerboard mastery is key. The one thing that made it easy to create/learn music on guitar also made it also difficult for guitar players to learn to play off notation -> Chord shapes and patterned scalar movement within boxes/

How about playing the scales on one string . Do not forget third and fourth intervals as well for variety. Use the full string meaning on E string and playing A major scale - do not neglect playing below notes below E at 5th fret etc. Notate these scales/arpeggios by hand on a staff paper. Go easy start with whole notes, half notes and quarter notes and use a metronome. Then slowly introduce cross stringing. Like play the A major scale alternating between D and E string. One string exercises is good even if your goal is not reading.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Awesome responses and guidance here!

FYI, mostly, I want to be able to print and use transcribed parts for bass in standard notation. I never got into tab, because rhythm is at best an after-thought.

Not that my reading of complex rhythms is strong. I still have to recall the rhythm from the song in even some basic cases.

Playing around with the free open-source MuseScore to write, hear and play along with more complex rhythms. Very good software, once you figure-out the basics. Hint: for SoundFonts, see "synthesizer" and "mixer", after you figure out what folder to place SoundFonts in...

 

[smtp4me]

I really want to learn to read standard notation on bass, but want to get on the right track.

With clarinet or sax it was simple: one note on staff *always* was fingered the same way. With bass, though, there are options. Also, unlike sax or clarinet, it is easy to transpose by moving up or down X frets.

OK, now my question. I found standard notation for a favorite song of mine: “Give it to me baby” by Rick James. 4 sharps, so key of E major. Find the “Es” on the staff. See the intervals, relative to the E major scale. Easy! I’m pretty good with scales, modes and intervals, so I could actually see the connection between those scales I practiced so much, and the “written music” I had as a kid on sax/clarinet.

But too easy?

Does the above sort-of make sense, or is it really necessary to learn positions, Simandl, etc? I know I need to be more comfortable with knowing where ALL the notes are on the fretboard and staff (which I am working on), but I am hoping that “seeing the intervals/scale” relative to the key is a valid way to read bass.

I am worried with positional/Simandl type playing, I would always struggle remembering sharps and flats in keys other than C.

Hopefully my question makes sense...

Like you, I can read treble clef quite well (from many years playing saxophone). My first instrument was piano and I could read both clefs back then, but I was about 10 or 11 when I stopped formal piano lessons (so... ~45 years ago) and despite the fact that I play bass, I haven't spent much time reading bass clef since then.

If it were me, I wouldn't worry at the beginning about hand position or which one of multiple fret/position choices are available (e.g. C as third fret on A string or eighth fret on E string with standard tuning), I would simply say the bass clef note names out loud as I read and play them, over and over. It might even help if you get some music staff paper and write all the notes in the staff and say the names in the bass clef out loud, over and over.

Choosing which position/frets to play and when is something you develop anyway. I learn bass tracks by ear (sometimes with tabs), and once I have figured out the notes, underlying chords and key signature, then I may go back and decide which hand position and frets to use, based on what works best for me.

BTW - If I had to read bass clef, but not sight read it in a performance/recording situation, I would just do a conversion in my head because I know that the notes in bass clef are either one full line or one full space lower in the staff.

Edit: Here is a tip/trick a music teacher showed me years ago. This is actually part of the circle of fifths, but memorize the following letters, in order:
BEADGCF
A quick and easy way to look at sheet music and determine the key signature, is to look at the flats and sharps at the beginning of each line (immediately next to the clef marker). In the key of A flat major for example, the flats will appear, in order, as Bb, Eb, Ab, and finally Db. Move back by one note from the last flat - Db, and you see Ab, which is the key signature. Try it with Eb major: the flats will appear as Bb, Eb, and finally Ab. Move back one from Ab and you will see Eb, which is the key.

You can also use this to easily determine "which key has 4 flats, or 2 sharps?". F is the first key to have a flat, then B which has two, then E which has 3, .... G is the first key to have a sharp, then D which has two, then A which has three. If you look at BEADGCF from left to right, you can see the keys and how many flats they have starting with F, and from right to left you can see the keys and how many sharps they have starting with G.

 

[SLO Surfer]

My question was does it make sense to have a strong focus on seeing intervals, arpeggios and scales on the staff when reading music, rather than thinking strict "positions" and "standard fingerings" like taught in the Hal Leonard books?

hi. I started out on clarinet too, in 4th grade. By high school I was a fluent sight reader on woodwinds and learning to read bass clef on electric bass with the Hal Leonard book. I can say that as a fluent sight reader on bass for decades now that I see and read notes, not necessarily looking for patterns or scales. I read just like I did on clarinet, but you’re right that there’s multiple fretboard options for most notes on bass. I find that as I’m sight reading I’m always looking ahead a few notes, and pick my fingerings based on the upcoming notes and the scale/interval/chord patterns I’ve drilled into my muscle memory. As I practice reading music, (new and old music, not live on stage) I slow down and figure out the best positions and fingerings. This kind of practice has made it more easy to figure good fingerings and positions when sight reading on the fly at a show in front of an audience. It also depends on the song, dynamics, articulations, etc. If it’s a rock song I might be playing A at the 5th fret of the E string, but a ballad or light bossa, I might play open A string.

so I think it’s good to practice seeing the scales/intervals/etc, good to practice slowing down and figuring out best note choice/fingering options note by note (sometimes the best fingering for you may not be what Hal Leonard says), and good to see/read any note on the staff and know exactly where it is on the fretboard immediately.

I never think about Hal Leonard or simandl hand positions or strict fingering rules when sight reading, though I did when I was focusing on learning good tone and technique. When sight reading I focus on the notes themselves, and the song dictates where to play those notes on the fretboard.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

FYI, in addition to needing to spend a LOT of time KNOWING notes (by letter) inside-out on both the fretboard and staff, my (sight-reading) reading of rhythm is weak. I have always played bass "by ear" (think: repetitive box patterns), so I guess I have a lot of weak spots.

I just bought a $3.99 iOS app called ReadRhythm that seems pretty good for practice of reading rhythms on the staff, and tapping them out with a finger to the built-in metronome. There are other apps out there too (more for Android, it seems), but I think I can get a lot of mileage out of this app. On the syncopated stuff (reading), I always seemed to struggle more with rhythm than pitch.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Just don't get stuck in first position with an extension up the G string for higher notes.