Reality Check - Amp price, performance, tone, volume, size, weight, etc.

[grendle]

In almost 20 years I still haven't found an amp I liked better than my trusty hartke 3500 after changing the preamp tube. It just won't die , is loud as hell, sounds great and I've never needed anything more. I gas and look and try different amps thinking this is the one! But their not, so I keep it.

 

[nashvillebill]

As an old fart, this is a perfect opportunity to tell younger folks that they don't realize how good musicians have it these days.

When I started playing in the 70's, there was no Internet, no Craigslist, no forums to discuss gear, no manufacturers web sites, no online ordering, or any ways to compare features of different gear. There weren't huge superstores like GC all over. You wanted an amp, you went to a musty old music store and had to go with whatever the salesman told you or showed you. The only media for information was the monthly Guitar Player magazine. Want to learn a song, you slowed the record down, or put the song on cassette to play it back and forth. And no song downloading to get the songs either, you bought the record or recorded it off the radio.

Even in the mid-70's, a 150 watt (RMS) bass amp with a 2x15 cab was about as good as it got, unless you could afford a SVT....

Now there are some things about the 70's I miss but for musicians, there's nothing like today.

 

[B-string]

As an old fart, this is a perfect opportunity to tell younger folks that they don't realize how good musicians have it these days.

When I started playing in the 70's, there was no Internet, no Craigslist, no forums to discuss gear, no manufacturers web sites, no online ordering, or any ways to compare features of different gear. There weren't huge superstores like GC all over. You wanted an amp, you went to a musty old music store and had to go with whatever the salesman told you or showed you. The only media for information was the monthly Guitar Player magazine. Want to learn a song, you slowed the record down, or put the song on cassette to play it back and forth. And no song downloading to get the songs either, you bought the record or recorded it off the radio.

Even in the mid-70's, a 150 watt (RMS) bass amp with a 2x15 cab was about as good as it got, unless you could afford a SVT....

Now there are some things about the 70's I miss but for musicians, there's nothing like today.

I agree......though I did have a 300 watt Acoustic Control 360/361. 300 watts into a folded 18" driven horn cab. Snacked on SVTs......

 

[R Baer]

As an old fart, this is a perfect opportunity to tell younger folks that they don't realize how good musicians have it these days.

When I started playing in the 70's, there was no Internet, no Craigslist, no forums to discuss gear, no manufacturers web sites, no online ordering, or any ways to compare features of different gear. There weren't huge superstores like GC all over. You wanted an amp, you went to a musty old music store and had to go with whatever the salesman told you or showed you. The only media for information was the monthly Guitar Player magazine. Want to learn a song, you slowed the record down, or put the song on cassette to play it back and forth. And no song downloading to get the songs either, you bought the record or recorded it off the radio.

Even in the mid-70's, a 150 watt (RMS) bass amp with a 2x15 cab was about as good as it got, unless you could afford a SVT....

Now there are some things about the 70's I miss but for musicians, there's nothing like today.

Yep. I remember lifting that needle and backing it up a little bit, over and over and over again, to learn a bass riff. I really agree with this post a lot, but then there was was something to be said for "ignorance is bliss". I'm sure if I heard some of my old amps today, I would cringe, but I certainly thought they sounded great back in the day.

Honestly, I think the biggest modern benefit to today's musician is the ability to record your music yourself and market it directly on the internet. In my day, you played your ass off and hoped for that big record deal. If you didn't get it, well, that was that. Todays players are able to go it alone and get their music out there for all the world to hear.... Oh, to be 20 again!

 

[RickenBoogie]

As an old fart, this is a perfect opportunity to tell younger folks that they don't realize how good musicians have it these days.

When I started playing in the 70's, there was no Internet, no Craigslist, no forums to discuss gear, no manufacturers web sites, no online ordering, or any ways to compare features of different gear. There weren't huge superstores like GC all over. You wanted an amp, you went to a musty old music store and had to go with whatever the salesman told you or showed you. The only media for information was the monthly Guitar Player magazine. Want to learn a song, you slowed the record down, or put the song on cassette to play it back and forth. And no song downloading to get the songs either, you bought the record or recorded it off the radio.

Even in the mid-70's, a 150 watt (RMS) bass amp with a 2x15 cab was about as good as it got, unless you could afford a SVT....

Now there are some things about the 70's I miss but for musicians, there's nothing like today.

OK, count me in. This post may be bringing out all the old farts, but it's also 100% truth. --and +1 to being 20 again, now. Though, I don't really have the energy to do it all over again.

 

[Count Bassie]

As an old fart, this is a perfect opportunity to tell younger folks that they don't realize how good musicians have it these days.

When I started playing in the 70's, there was no Internet, no Craigslist, no forums to discuss gear, no manufacturers web sites, no online ordering, or any ways to compare features of different gear. There weren't huge superstores like GC all over. You wanted an amp, you went to a musty old music store and had to go with whatever the salesman told you or showed you. The only media for information was the monthly Guitar Player magazine. Want to learn a song, you slowed the record down, or put the song on cassette to play it back and forth. And no song downloading to get the songs either, you bought the record or recorded it off the radio.

Even in the mid-70's, a 150 watt (RMS) bass amp with a 2x15 cab was about as good as it got, unless you could afford a SVT....

Now there are some things about the 70's I miss but for musicians, there's nothing like today.

On the other hand, and just for arguments' sake (as if I need to provoke something like that on talkbass! )... frankly I'm thinking that there are even too many choices now. Bad enough- in my case- I have to compare a GK 800RB to a Trace Elliot AH250SMX on craigslist... and bad enough again that all I have to do is log onto the internet to find a virtual supermarket/swap meet to find 200 more choices to toss around! Now we can even stick 500w into a gig-bag!

Caveats and personal attitudes aside, there's well-beyond the concept of something for everyone; the market is glutted with tweaks and renditions on a few formats.

Had to have a short rant there, pardon! I'll step back off the edge of my lawn now...

 

[Munjibunga]

Reading your preface, I was sure I was going to disagree with you, but I don't. Except one thing. Gillette razors are not cheap.

 

[Count Bassie]

Reading your preface, I was sure I was going to disagree with you, but I don't. Except one thing. Gillette razors are not cheap.

Oh, good. I almost thought Talkbass was going to disappoint, for a moment there...

 

[B-string]

Oh, good. I almost thought Talkbass was going to disappoint, for a moment there...

No worries there

 

[BassmanPaul]

Coming back into the thread after four years, I would like to say that good equipment is really quite cheap. As an example years ago I bough a Mackie FR1400 for my new Acme cabinets. It cost me well over $700 on sale. It's still working without fault BUT as I am now officially an old fart I can no longer cope with its weight. I have just replaced it with a Carvin DCM1000L It's weight? 10Lbs. Price? $350! Power has never been cheaper.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Ivan, when you first started this thread, you were totalling stating the obvious. However, the sad reality is sometimes the obvious needs to be stated.

 

[Count Bassie]

Ivan, when you first started this thread, you were totalling stating the obvious. However, the sad reality is sometimes the obvious needs to be stated.

Sure, but that's not bad. And there are lots of newbies cruising through, picking up the pieces. Could be a sticky, but it's a good thing to see the info so easily just offered up, to float freely in the stream of chit-chat here. Plus it readily invites commentary, which CAN () also be worthy, coming from the combined years of varying experience represented.

Good thread.

 

[Ralf1e]

So how can I get my 100 watt Behringer combo to sound loud enough to play with my band?

Unplug their amps while they're not looking

 

[pepj]

I take a date, get there and can deliver what I do.
I use stuff that sounds good to my ears.
I play with people who have the same sort of ethos.
I kind of subscribe and endorse you get what you pay for.
I'm not against far east product but I will not pay western costs for it.
If the makers have same employer costs then I'd have less of a problem with that, but then why would they shift manufacturing there in the first place?
Quality costs, the problem is people dont alway like to pay a premium for it.

 

[Count Bassie]

Quality costs, the problem is people dont alway like to pay a premium for it.

I'm not sure you should pay a premium just because something does what is supposed to do. You should pay a price that supports the manufacturing and the hands that do it, and provides a profit for the manufacturer. Big money for function and reliability is, in my view, bloating the price.
I agree about the far east point though.
Anyway, good gear doesn't have to be the newest thing. Amps have been solid and reliable since Peavey nailed solid state (they are the ones who first got it right, so I read). Much of the older hear is stressful repairable... Much of the newer gear is replaceable.

 

[pepj]

The biggest seller for PV was it was bomber build, imv. Reliable, but never great tonally imv.
I dont recall it being in a position to charge a premium because it wasnt up there with the better lines. But SWR and Eden defintely were.

But...if something made in the U.S has a premium price, ie, more than competition in Asia, and it should if it is using local made parts, then customers need to accept it should cost more
that something made in the far east, unless that far east manufacturer has the same employment costs
and the parts cost is equal.
Hence the premium, but consumers are always slow to pay for this therefore making the maker needing to make saves somewhere. SWR diluted their lines with Workingman, and the X series imv.
They also never survived.

 

[Count Bassie]

The biggest seller for PV was it was bomber build, imv. Reliable, but never great tonally imv.
I dont recall it being in a position to charge a premium because it wasnt up there with the better lines. But SWR and Eden defintely were.

But...if something made in the U.S has a premium price, ie, more than competition in Asia, and it should if it is using local made parts, then customers need to accept it should cost more
that something made in the far east, unless that far east manufacturer has the same employment costs
and the parts cost is equal.
Hence the premium, but consumers are always slow to pay for this therefore making the maker needing to make saves somewhere. SWR diluted their lines with Workingman, and the X series imv.
They also never survived.

It is because of the rush by American companies to pull jobs and send them to sweat shops. That's the abbreviated bottom line.
Peavey has been used by lots of fine musicians making classic sound, and I think they get kind of a bad rap. Maybe it was that cheesey logo, lol.
But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

 

[pepj]

No, I think PV's rep punched above the quality of the product. I ran a combo ragged and combined with the BW speaker, it was bombproof.
Tonally meh though.

Re, off shore builds, it will be interesting how Aguilar and Markbass work out. They are 2 hi profile moves iirc. Ditto Sadowsky.

I never like to see the smaller brands, sell out to Corp, with all the associated boardroom moves to maximise profit, happen myself.

The brand might survive in name, but everything else..??
And if these last few years have talk us anything, its invest at home. imo.

 

[fdeck]

Which brings me to the final issues of size and weight. Guess what? Bass amplification is more or less big and heavy!

...

So that's it. You get what you pay for, there is no such thing as a free lunch, and best of all, "you canna change the laws of physics captain!" -

Not surprisingly, over the past 17 years the laws of physics have somehow held up better than the laws of bass gear. But it's interesting to see how far we've come. We've seen drastic reductions in size and weight of amps, and weight of speakers. Hoffman's Law hasn't been overcome, but designers are making more effective use of the available space. (Hoffman's Law is about efficiency, not cone excursion).

I'm looking forward to the next 17 years!