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Reality Check - Amp price, performance, tone, volume, size, weight, etc.
- Thread starter IvanMike
- Start date
IvanMike said:Actually, the more i think about it, the more i disagree even with this.
If I hired workmen to build an addition to my house, i would expect them to bring tools adequate for the job. Imagine if they showed up and told me, "well, we brought a hammer and some nails, but if you want us to do a quality job you should have provided us with the power tools we really need".
Our amplifiers are one of our tools for providing quality sound for those who hire us. IMO, unless some kind of fair and equitable arrangement is made otherwise, we're responsible for bringing tools (amps) adequate to provide quality sound, both in terms of tone and volume.
I don't agree. A more realistic comparison would be hiring someone to plumb in your new washing machine and expecting them to bring their own mains water and main drainage systems with them.
No club owner who is putting on a band a night, or two bands a night is going to survive by having each band bring their own PA! It's a facility of the club.
I'll go along with just about everything in the short story IvanM wrote, except the ''You get what you pay for'' part. I think ''Sometime you get what you pay for" is more accurate.
DeadRBassistNJ said:
5000+ people in a club? I have played a 2000 capacity club, which is about as big as a club can be before it stops being a club and becomes a large concert hall in my view.....and I went direct there. I could hear myself because we had monitors. The guitarist's sound got lost on stage...he was using one Fender pro reverb..70 watts. Should be loud enough. But I, who was using no amp, could hear myself perfectly...as could others.
I am just saying that direct is always an option. Clearly not your opition, but still it's there. And there is nothing immoral about it.
in my area its not so much clubs and bars that have shows, its schools and churches, and they never build a place with having shows in mind because a show at a church is something brought up years after it is built by a kid who wants to bring more attendance and get attention to the church, in these situations you either play without a PA or bring your own.
i run sound at a summer conecrt series they do outdoor arownd here and one day it rained and they had to move it inside, funny thing is no matter what sound is in the contract, but the place they moved it to was so small playing acoustic was overkill so they just told me to stay home and i still got payed!(beat that
!)
another thing is that when your playing large venues and outdoor gigs, even with PA support your going to have trouble hearing yourslef onstage and as a soundguy i know that monitors in some situations are rarely as simple as having 2 per person each with there own mix(in fact thats rarely possible period) so to even hear yourself onstage with all the ambient noise your going to need a larger rig even if youve got your main sound the crowd hears going through the PA.
to contradict all of this ive run sound for gigs where i could have someone cut back all the way in the mains but still have him be the loudest one from the crowds perspective because his amp was so much louder than everyone else, and if i turned it up to drown him out and get any main control the old people would get mad (i hate people that come to jazz gigs to socialize rather than listen but i digress) the one time this happened the guy that was doing this was a blind child prodegy that probably didnt know what his amp settings were anyways(he had his eq set all the way negative on bass mid and high! talk about mud!
)
i run sound at a summer conecrt series they do outdoor arownd here and one day it rained and they had to move it inside, funny thing is no matter what sound is in the contract, but the place they moved it to was so small playing acoustic was overkill so they just told me to stay home and i still got payed!(beat that
!)another thing is that when your playing large venues and outdoor gigs, even with PA support your going to have trouble hearing yourslef onstage and as a soundguy i know that monitors in some situations are rarely as simple as having 2 per person each with there own mix(in fact thats rarely possible period) so to even hear yourself onstage with all the ambient noise your going to need a larger rig even if youve got your main sound the crowd hears going through the PA.
to contradict all of this ive run sound for gigs where i could have someone cut back all the way in the mains but still have him be the loudest one from the crowds perspective because his amp was so much louder than everyone else, and if i turned it up to drown him out and get any main control the old people would get mad (i hate people that come to jazz gigs to socialize rather than listen but i digress) the one time this happened the guy that was doing this was a blind child prodegy that probably didnt know what his amp settings were anyways(he had his eq set all the way negative on bass mid and high! talk about mud!
)IvanMike said:
I hear that. My sax cost just over 3 grand while both my basses, combo, extension cab, and tuners/cables etc. cost roughly 2 grand.
Plus a nice rubber mouthpiece and keeping decent reeds in my case.... $$$
I'm sorry but I read this comment a lot on TB and it's just not correct to say that a big PA means you can use a small amp. Why? Because the on-stage volume from a big PA is very high. It's been my experience that the bigger the PA, the bigger the drum-fill and the louder monitors. Factor in the sound spilling on to the stage from the big FOH speakers and the overall stage volume is often louder than a gig with a smaller PA.IvanMike said:
Just be aware that you're in for a hard time if you're going to rely on the soundguy for your own stage monitoring in this situation. In fact if there was ever a time where a big bass rig is OK, it's when you're using a massive PA that can get over it. The golden rule is that the stage amps should never overpower the PA.
And allow me play devil's advocate on another point. Those of you who are concerned with fillng the room with bass probably shouldn't be. OK so this particular gig is a Vocals only PA - so what. Did it ever occur to you that maybe that's because the club owners and patrons prefer it that way? Maybe they want it to be quiet at the back of the room..........
I agree on all your points pete. I was playing a bit of devil's advocate myself on the "bringing a combo and letting the pa do the work" thing. In my "perfect world" the PA mentioned would have a monitor system adequate to provide full monitoring for the bass. (and as we both know, the number of PAs that can do that are far smaller than the number of PAs that can provide full bass guitar reinforcement for the FOH)Petebass said:
And a big +1 on your point on volume as well.
Perhaps we have very different experiences. Where i am a very small percentage of clubs that have live entertainment on a regular basis have a PA of any kind. The venues that have a PA capable of full reinforcement for bass and drums are very few indeed. The number of clubs that have a system capable of providing adequate monitoring for BG on stage could be counted on one hand. Surprisingly, they all seem to stay in buisiness.Andy Daventry said:
I am having probs understanding you. How do these clubs handle music when the band is not playing? What about CDs. What do the DJs play through? Or do they bring their own systems as well? Or does the band provide music before and between sets?
I do not know of a single bar or club in Ankara that puts on live music and does not have an installed sound system of some kind. Even the restaurants have a small desk and 250 watts of vocal support.
Apart from anything else, no Turkish club owner would trust musicians to turn up with something useable! The idea of a music club that does not do its own sound is a concept I have difficulty grasping. It would be like a restaurant taking orders and then phoning out for takeaway.
I do not know of a single bar or club in Ankara that puts on live music and does not have an installed sound system of some kind. Even the restaurants have a small desk and 250 watts of vocal support.
Apart from anything else, no Turkish club owner would trust musicians to turn up with something useable! The idea of a music club that does not do its own sound is a concept I have difficulty grasping. It would be like a restaurant taking orders and then phoning out for takeaway.
- Feb 27, 2005
- 3,218
- 125
- Disclosures
- Full disclosure, I'm a certified Fender technician working in a music store that carries Fender, Yamaha, and Ibanez products among others.
I'm not sure what the PA situation is in IvanMike's area, but here it's absolutely abysmal. Generally, DJ's are expected to provide their own PA. Places that specialize in live music hire a production company that provides bands, a PA, and the soundman. With the exception of the more famous venues in the SF Bay Area, most of the music clubs in the area have absolutely horrid PA systems, usually Behringer's 1000 watt package and a soundguy who has no clue how to use it, and doesn't care. Most bands here assume they need a good backline, because experience has taught them that you won't hear anything but kick drum and vocals, if that, otherwise.
Somehow, despite the higher price of quality gear, even the most hack band's I've shared a stage with have excellent equipment--and most bass players have a larger amp, and just hope they'll be able DI out to the PA, and maybe, just maybe, they'll get a monitor mix that isn't 90% vocals. Granted, this is primarily the blues and rock clubs in town, some of the jazz places have no PA, but excellent accoustics, and don't require their bands to be amplified.
I'm not sure why club owners aren't concerned about quality, except that their patrons often aren't, either, or don't know any better. One of the reasons my metal band has something of a draw is that we bring our own PA, plunked down the bucks on our gear, work on the balance between volume and frequencies out front, and deliver a good, loud show. Unfortunately, a lot of bar owners, patrons, and bands, are willing to settle for much less, and don't know what they're missing until they're shown differently.
Sorry, didn't mean to write another novel here, just sharing my experience. I WISH that we could get away with smaller amps and larger PA's with great monitors, but in this locale it just isn't in the cards unless you're regularly opening for a national act, or are yourself able to pack in 2000+ people.
Somehow, despite the higher price of quality gear, even the most hack band's I've shared a stage with have excellent equipment--and most bass players have a larger amp, and just hope they'll be able DI out to the PA, and maybe, just maybe, they'll get a monitor mix that isn't 90% vocals. Granted, this is primarily the blues and rock clubs in town, some of the jazz places have no PA, but excellent accoustics, and don't require their bands to be amplified.
I'm not sure why club owners aren't concerned about quality, except that their patrons often aren't, either, or don't know any better. One of the reasons my metal band has something of a draw is that we bring our own PA, plunked down the bucks on our gear, work on the balance between volume and frequencies out front, and deliver a good, loud show. Unfortunately, a lot of bar owners, patrons, and bands, are willing to settle for much less, and don't know what they're missing until they're shown differently.
Sorry, didn't mean to write another novel here, just sharing my experience. I WISH that we could get away with smaller amps and larger PA's with great monitors, but in this locale it just isn't in the cards unless you're regularly opening for a national act, or are yourself able to pack in 2000+ people.
I always bring a rig suitable to the room in case I have to be the one filling it. 99% of the time I bring my AI Focus and Schroeder 310212. This will fill most venues I play in. I've had sound guys say "you idiot, the bass doesn't need to go through the PA." I've had others plug me in, tell me to keep my stage level low, and then turn me way down. I've got a wireless and I try to go out into the crowd at some point to see how it sounds. Sometimes I'll even stop playing once I'm out there and notice there's no difference.
Nowadays I bring my own sound support unless I know there will be a decent sound person.
By the way, some of the new technology is incredible. The AI Focus still blows my mind every time I use it. And the Schroeder is amazing in how much it projects the entire range of sound.
Nowadays I bring my own sound support unless I know there will be a decent sound person.
By the way, some of the new technology is incredible. The AI Focus still blows my mind every time I use it. And the Schroeder is amazing in how much it projects the entire range of sound.
Most places run regular music via a jukebox type system, with a sound system dedicated entirely to this, and without a method to use it for live sound reinforecment. In fact, most of these systems really aren't appropriate for live sound anyhow. Not that they're not good and loud, but they're just not designed for live sound.Andy Daventry said:
With the exception of the few clubs that have their own PA, any DJs bring their own sound system.
Got to agree with Ivan Mike on this one ... one truly does get what one pays for. There is no way, for example, that a 100 watt combo will ever keep up with a 500 watt amp/preamp/cab set up. And it's not supposed to. The problem is that a lot of folks might think it can, and they push it till they blow the speaker, amp, etc., and yes, then trash it on online gear reviews.
Like everyone here I've owned expensive and inexpensive stuff. I've had all tube, all solid state, and hybrid stuff. It's been my experience that stuff that costs more usually performs better than the inexpensive stuff in the grand scheme of things. I guess it all boils down to what one can afford, and what it will be used for.
My advice to anyone who wants that "ultimate rig" is to tell them to save up for it, and then buy it. I've never been one to buy a "stopgap" set up in the interim. I like to buy things once, and that's it. If I can afford what I believe or others have verified as quality, value, etc. for the money I buy it. It's like an old music teacher once told me - if you can afford a Cadillac (or Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, etc.), why not drive one?
Now, younger players can't afford the end stuff most of the time. That's cool. They just shouldn't get angry when the lower end stuff doesn't perform like that Eden or Ampeg stack they thrashed about on in their local Guitar Center. It's not going to, so they should expect that, and use the equipment they have within the performance parameters in the design. When I hear a young guy tell me he wants something that will help him keep up with the guitar players in his band for under $200, I just kind of roll my eyes privately. It's not going to happen. Guitar players don't need the amount of power to move the air producing the frequencies their instruments replicate. They can do quite well with a 100 watt head. Bass players need at least two to three times that due to the frequencies involved. This is what's important for younger or inexperienced players to understand IMHO - they need the wattage and cabinets to produce the frequencies desired. And no 100 watt combo is going to keep up with a Marshall for the most part.
How do I know? My brother had a Marshall stack when we played in bands together. At the time, I had two Fender Amps and 2X15 and 4X12 cabinets. I ran these stereo, and it allowed me to have the volume I needed for the stuff we were playing. And yes, I saved in order buy it, and made do with what I had in the interim. My interim rig (an old Fender 50 watt bassman and a Kustom 2X15) just didn't cut it, but I didn't turn it all the way up to compensate. I just did the best I could with it until I could get what I needed. And I never blew the speakers or head.
Anyway, Ivan Mike is on target. You do, indeed get what you pay for.
Alan
Like everyone here I've owned expensive and inexpensive stuff. I've had all tube, all solid state, and hybrid stuff. It's been my experience that stuff that costs more usually performs better than the inexpensive stuff in the grand scheme of things. I guess it all boils down to what one can afford, and what it will be used for.
My advice to anyone who wants that "ultimate rig" is to tell them to save up for it, and then buy it. I've never been one to buy a "stopgap" set up in the interim. I like to buy things once, and that's it. If I can afford what I believe or others have verified as quality, value, etc. for the money I buy it. It's like an old music teacher once told me - if you can afford a Cadillac (or Mercedes, Lexus, BMW, etc.), why not drive one?
Now, younger players can't afford the end stuff most of the time. That's cool. They just shouldn't get angry when the lower end stuff doesn't perform like that Eden or Ampeg stack they thrashed about on in their local Guitar Center. It's not going to, so they should expect that, and use the equipment they have within the performance parameters in the design. When I hear a young guy tell me he wants something that will help him keep up with the guitar players in his band for under $200, I just kind of roll my eyes privately. It's not going to happen. Guitar players don't need the amount of power to move the air producing the frequencies their instruments replicate. They can do quite well with a 100 watt head. Bass players need at least two to three times that due to the frequencies involved. This is what's important for younger or inexperienced players to understand IMHO - they need the wattage and cabinets to produce the frequencies desired. And no 100 watt combo is going to keep up with a Marshall for the most part.
How do I know? My brother had a Marshall stack when we played in bands together. At the time, I had two Fender Amps and 2X15 and 4X12 cabinets. I ran these stereo, and it allowed me to have the volume I needed for the stuff we were playing. And yes, I saved in order buy it, and made do with what I had in the interim. My interim rig (an old Fender 50 watt bassman and a Kustom 2X15) just didn't cut it, but I didn't turn it all the way up to compensate. I just did the best I could with it until I could get what I needed. And I never blew the speakers or head.
Anyway, Ivan Mike is on target. You do, indeed get what you pay for.
Alan
While I agree with all of the points/couterpoints in this thread I think it comes down to common sense and musical discretion. I play in alot of bigger clubs and I have never needed an SVT stack or a any other really large higher wattage amp to be heard or to have the tone I like. I use an SWR SM500 and two 4ohmn cabinets and I sound good and I have more than enough volume. I have, however been fortunate enough to play with bandmates that cooperate with me on volume. If they wanted to blow me away they probably could, but then that would not be my gig and I would be happy to leave. There are alot of really good, fairly portable amps out there today for not alot of money (which is a relative thing). I believe that what I person wants to spend on gear is a totally personal matter but it has been my experience that in the context of club playing alot of the nuances of very high end gear get lost or not noticed at all at the gig.
The Australian experience with club supplied PA's seems to be different and in a lot of ways, better. Not all venues supply a PA, but the ones that do usually don't "buy" it. They have it there on a permanent hire arrangement from a production company who often also supply operators. As a result you usually turn up to find a PA that is very capable and an operator who can usually pull a good mix. Why? Because if the gear or the operator aren't cutting the mustard, it's easy for the venue to ring the production hire company and "fix it or I'm pulling the plug on the whole deal".
