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Recone Speakers or have I lost my mind.

#21
Nighttrain1127 said:
But also agree that any gains in available power would barely be audible Then the Issue is would it be worth the cost vs gains.
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So I am hallucinating when playing my PLX2 1804 into these cabs? There is no difference in perceived volume/thump/thunder/definition/clarity?

I can see where there would only be a slight difference in change using the LMII into one 8 ohm cab over one 4 ohm cab with the same number of drivers/cab dimensions etc.... but I would think there would be a vast difference using the SM 12 into two 8 ohm cabs over two 4 ohm cabs of the same drivers/dimensions etc.... going from 750 watts to 1200 watts.
 
#22
SpamBot said:
Well then I digress. I didn't realize you could replace a driver's voice coil with a different coil, I've only heard of voice coils being replaced with replacements.
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Yes folks that smoke their voice coils have long since been getting their speakers re coned over buying new drivers with the factory correct coils/cones and when you do this you have the re con-er change the resistance of the voice coil if you like.
 
#24
Red Planet said:
Getting 1200 watts out of the SM 12 as opposed to 750 watts out of it, would that not be more like running the 1200 watts of the 1804 and less like running the LMIII at 500 watts.
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You want to go through reconing all of your speakers to pick up an additional 450 watts of power ?

Going from 750 watts to 1200 watts is not even doubling your power.

Therefore, your not even going to get 3db increase.

Seems like alot of expense for nothing. You are not really going to be able to hear the difference.
 
#25
Nighttrain1127 said:
If you double the output power you gain 3db of sound pressure (usually) this is the least a human ear can discern. So barely noticable. It may give you some headroom but nothing like doubling the sound level available
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3db not a big difference, tell that to Marshall.

I would love to try an experiment with you. How about we take my Brother In Law's grand kids and hit them on the toe, while they are standing next to you. Then lets turn their volume up 3 db's. :D:p

And before you say it, yes there is a difference in the lower registers.
 
#26
More definition is usually upper mids and highs yes you might hear more there because those frequencies take less power to reproduce as far as thump and thunder because you are not pushing your amp to it's very edge the amp can control the speaker(damping ) a bit more and make it sound somewhat tighter. So yes the lower register could sound different, more controled and tighter .
 
#27
Bass_Pounder said:
You want to go through reconing all of your speakers to pick up an additional 450 watts of power ?

Going from 750 watts to 1200 watts is not even doubling your power.

Therefore, your not even going to get 3db increase.

Seems like alot of expense for nothing. You are not really going to be able to hear the difference.
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Well I tell you I can hear/feel it. :eek:
 
#28
Red Planet said:
Again let me state.

Several folks have said the SM12 amp is no louder than the LMIII into two 8 ohm cabs, which leaves me with two amps of the same horse power. With two 4 ohm cabs the SM12 is greatly louder than the LMIII (this I have heard).

My PLX 1804 with my current cabs will quake the earth. Getting 1200 watts out of the SM 12 as opposed to 750 watts out of it, would that not be more like running the 1200 watts of the 1804 and less like running the LMIII at 500 watts.
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I see where you are going. I am glad you will try the two cabs first before any mods. Keep in mind you are comparing a neutral voiced broad band amp (QSC) to bass guitar specific voiced amps. There is a big difference between the way the two operate. Be interesting to hear the outcome! :hyper:
 
#30
No point in arguing the point. I can only say what I know and you can say what your experiences are. I can't say you did not hear what you say you heard . All any of us are doing is giving you information what you decide to do with it is your decision. We are here to help each other not make decisions for them. If you say you felt it and heard it then I guess you did. (no sarcasm intended). If you decide to do the reconing then it would be cool to hear back and find out what the results are. Either way this was headed to a pissing contest and we don't need to go there.
 
#31
rbonner said:
Wow Red, you sure stired up a pot of goop with this thread...

If your buddy can save you a bunch of money do what moves you.

BOB
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Ha! Yes I can stir it with the best of them. :D

Not trying to be argumentative at all. Just addressing each post. I really do appreciate each persons input to this subject.

Part of what we are missing here is some points of reference. I have a tendency to say way too much so was trying to keep to a minimum.

Several folks have stated that the SM12 at 750 watts is no louder than the LMIII at 500 watts and we should not directly compare the wattage.

I must add I have heard the SM12 at it's full potential and there is no mistaking it's superior girth over the LMIII in that setting.


My SM12 should be here Tuesday and I will be able to know for sure then. If the SM12 has just a smidgen more arse, I am covered, if it does not then for the loud stuff, am set down another path. One of those might be what I'm talking about here.

I really like the sound of the LMIII but what I do not like is running it full boar for louder situations and wanted an alternative to this.

Keep em coming guys. :hyper:
 
#32
B-string said:
I see where you are going. I am glad you will try the two cabs first before any mods. Keep in mind you are comparing a neutral voiced broad band amp (QSC) to bass guitar specific voiced amps. There is a big difference between the way the two operate. Be interesting to hear the outcome! :hyper:
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I agree entirely with you.

Will definitely post my results as soon as I get the amp and think about what to do from there. Will not do anything hastily.
 
#33
Let's clear the air here with some factual information about speaker construction and reconing. I have done more than my fair share of both reconing as well as transducer development and testing.

1. Voice coils are available in a variety of nominal impedances, that's one of the variables involved in developing a driver for a particular application. These nominal impedances are just a rough average and there will be all kinds of variations based on the mechanical aspects of the driver and it's acoustic loading.

2. You can not recone a speaker without replacing ALL the moving parts. Once they are installed in a speaker, they are one with themselves and no longer come apart individually.

3. You will probably not be able to get an exact 4 ohm replacement that shares the same tuning as the 8 ohm version unless the OEM manufacturer can supply this to you (generally because they also use the different impedances in their other products)

4. There may be some available "close enough" parts that will get you going, but the tuning parameters may shift significantly. Enough that I would be concerned.

5. With the additional power into the speakers you describe, you will surely run way out of Xmax beyond 600 watts RMS. Also, power compression will rob much of the gain you hope to achieve. Maybe as much 50% of the gain.

6. With 600 watts into that single 15" driver, I would expect damage to occur over time. Micro-tearing of the spider fibers due to overexcursion is common under these conditions.

7. Even 600 watts RMS into the 210 would concern me... again at low frequencies the mechanical power handling of a cabinet falls of really fast.

8. Try your cabinets with the ShuttleMax 12.0 at 8 ohms per channel. You may find that the output is just fine because of the way the output tube emulation limiter works. There's a difference in how the limiter functions at 8 ohms versus 4 ohms, just like a tube output stage.
 
#35
Thank you for your response agedhorse.

As far as the technical aspect I do not think I have been actually running 1200 watts into the two cabs with the PLX2. There is just something to be said about the amount of horse power on hand. I do on occasion light up the Clip Lights.

With regard to folks commenting on what the SM12 will do as opposed to the LMIII into the same two 8 ohm cabs, let me say first off I think they are full of bull and guess that I will not need to do this crazy thing I speak of. :D
 
#37
Every player has their own opinion, and what they think they hear may not be the actual reason for what is going on. Often, assumptions are made that are based in part on urban myth.

There are lots of reasons why something may sound one way, and sometimes it's just a tradeoff that was made in order to take advantage of something else that may be more desireable to one class of players.

When discussing the better quality amps, this must be taken into account. They are all good amps, now it's up to each player to find what they like personally. Everybody has their own favorite flavor... that's what's so good about the modern crop of quality product. CHOICE.

It's a good time to be a bass player.
 
#38
let's look at cost here. Average cost to re-cone a speaker $40-50 each plus the cost of the kit, if actually available. Kits can vary in cost from $50 on up. That's about $100 per speaker. You could probably buy replacement 4Ω drivers , again if available, for that much and sell your existing units to offset cost. If you don't use the exact kit for the re-cone the results will be a crapshoot at best.

To my mind you would be better served by picking up a stereo power amp and drive THAT from your amp of choice.

All thst being said, it's your equipment and your money! Do as what pleases you.

Paul
 
#39
JimmyM said:
You're assuming they can take it. Probably not the safest assumption, and after what Andy just said, it seems he agrees.
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Yes, it may be just fine... for a while. No real way to tell except down the road. I prefer to make conservative recommendations as that tends to get me into less hot water later on ;)

Once you get into the non-linear displacement of a speaker, the lifespan of the components shortens dramaticly. We see it in pro audio all the time.
 

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