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Recone Speakers or have I lost my mind.
- Thread starter Red Planet
- Start date
I don't turn the amps up all the way you know... Just until I hit the sweet spot.
You know the sweet spot, the point just before the cones invert and look like Madonna during the Blonde Ambition Tour....
OVER
They always taste a little bland to me until well charred
Yes I do understand, when I used to run, eh hem, ceramics.
"B" are you insinuating there is no sweet spot with NEOS? Just a boring colorless drone.....
BOB
Well I have been using these boys for a long time and they are local to me so. If I have more than one speaker done at a time I get an even better price.
Basically with this thread, all I did was ask a question.
There is definitely something to the sweet spot as I have experienced a good deal with high power but not using all that power. For some reason the drivers in the last few cabs I have owned seem to like what I have been doing with the headroom thing over less power and trying to squeeze the last bit of juice out of an amp.
Lets just recap a little.
I ran an SWR Goliath IV 4x10 with a Crest CA-9 Bridged Mono without issue and the 4x10 hammered. For at least a good six months. I then stepped to the QSC PLX2 1804 and the 2x10/1x15 SWR Golight Cabs with very similar results. Just pummeling. Not had any issues at all.
Now take those same cabs and go with an LMIII and yes it sounds very good but it's like someone dug up the concrete foundation.
Not wanting to add cabinets or add more stuff to carry just looking for some more rigidness for those loud occasions.
And really just asking the question. Not saying I'll actually do this.
Not looking to make my power bill go up as Mr Bonner does frequently. Yuk Yuk.
Oh BTW would those be called outies Bob?
There is definitely something to the sweet spot as I have experienced a good deal with high power but not using all that power. For some reason the drivers in the last few cabs I have owned seem to like what I have been doing with the headroom thing over less power and trying to squeeze the last bit of juice out of an amp.
Lets just recap a little.
I ran an SWR Goliath IV 4x10 with a Crest CA-9 Bridged Mono without issue and the 4x10 hammered. For at least a good six months. I then stepped to the QSC PLX2 1804 and the 2x10/1x15 SWR Golight Cabs with very similar results. Just pummeling. Not had any issues at all.
Now take those same cabs and go with an LMIII and yes it sounds very good but it's like someone dug up the concrete foundation.
Not wanting to add cabinets or add more stuff to carry just looking for some more rigidness for those loud occasions.
And really just asking the question. Not saying I'll actually do this.
Not looking to make my power bill go up as Mr Bonner does frequently. Yuk Yuk.
Oh BTW would those be called outies Bob?
You know, with all this discussion on the other threads why don't you build a 4X10 vertical cab RED? The thing should be easy to carry, wheel and lift... It will be thin and not terribly deep. If you use internal dividers the cab will be strong enough to park your 4X4 pickup on. Might just be the perfect thing for you? Maybe a slight up angle on the top speaker. Plus it could be really fun to build.
BOB
BOB
So let me recap, too...you asked a question, didn't like the reaction you got, and now you're mad. Sorry 
OK, so if you're hellbent on trying it, I would buy Kappalites or Deltalites rather than reconing the current speakers (not sure which is best for your cabs). It'll cost more, but if it doesn't work, you could sell the Kappalites and recover some money rather than being stuck with the recones.
OK, so if you're hellbent on trying it, I would buy Kappalites or Deltalites rather than reconing the current speakers (not sure which is best for your cabs). It'll cost more, but if it doesn't work, you could sell the Kappalites and recover some money rather than being stuck with the recones.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,075
- 5
- 221,153
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Actually, the most common cabinets to find in a speaker repair shop are 4 ohm 210's, followed by single driver 4 ohm cabinets. It takes a robust driver and careful (read as conservative) tuning to keep things together at the higher power that many amps deliver at 4 ohms into these boxes. Some manufacturers have had a heck of a time with this.
I can't think of more than a couple 210's that won't exceed Xmax between 30-50Hz at 600 watts. I think Bill Fitzmaurice and I are on the same page for many of the same reasons on this topic.
More speakers and less power per speaker (same power total)will improve things considerably... you get coupling, increase of baffle area, lower power compression, lower cone displacement etc. Just a bigger, fatter sound with less stress on the drivers.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,075
- 5
- 221,153
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
As a further discussion on driver robustness...
It's easy to make a driver that will handle thousands of watts. The difficulty is making it so that the efficiency is useable, it sounds good and it will tune to a box that's smaller than a refrigerator. Then there's the cost to consider.
Heck, a lightbulb will handle thousands of watts but won't get very loud. Actually it will make sound and you can hear it (big bulbs) but it's not practical.
The problem with very very high powered drivers is that they get so heavy (both the moving and fixed parts) that they become impossible to tune in a reasonable box, and because of the weight and the gap size, losses increase and bandwidth decreases. Another thing is that displacement must get really large meaning the surround and spider must be very "trick", and the voice coil(s) must have a lot of overhang which decreases efficiency too.
All in all, you end up with a very expensive part that has say 9dB less sensitivity and 8x the power handling which is a net gain of exactly zero, with a lot of drawbacks.
Some of the things that the larger (15" and 18") speakers use to increase power handling with a minimum of tradeoff is to go to double spiders with larger ODs (better centering under high excursion), inside-outside voice coils (better cooling for more wire in the gap), stacked (vertical) voice coils (better utilization of magnetic field(s), larger diameter (like 5") voice coils (better cooling, less mechanical stress on the cone neck and spider apex joint), better passive cooling (vents and channels), advanced cone materials (Kevlar and fiberglass pulp composites), differential drive (push pull allowing better mechanical advantage and more motor in tyhe same space), etc.
All of this costs money... a lot of money. These types of drivers may cost more than $500 each just raw driver cost. Not practical for most bass guitar applications IME.
It's easy to make a driver that will handle thousands of watts. The difficulty is making it so that the efficiency is useable, it sounds good and it will tune to a box that's smaller than a refrigerator. Then there's the cost to consider.
Heck, a lightbulb will handle thousands of watts but won't get very loud. Actually it will make sound and you can hear it (big bulbs) but it's not practical.
The problem with very very high powered drivers is that they get so heavy (both the moving and fixed parts) that they become impossible to tune in a reasonable box, and because of the weight and the gap size, losses increase and bandwidth decreases. Another thing is that displacement must get really large meaning the surround and spider must be very "trick", and the voice coil(s) must have a lot of overhang which decreases efficiency too.
All in all, you end up with a very expensive part that has say 9dB less sensitivity and 8x the power handling which is a net gain of exactly zero, with a lot of drawbacks.
Some of the things that the larger (15" and 18") speakers use to increase power handling with a minimum of tradeoff is to go to double spiders with larger ODs (better centering under high excursion), inside-outside voice coils (better cooling for more wire in the gap), stacked (vertical) voice coils (better utilization of magnetic field(s), larger diameter (like 5") voice coils (better cooling, less mechanical stress on the cone neck and spider apex joint), better passive cooling (vents and channels), advanced cone materials (Kevlar and fiberglass pulp composites), differential drive (push pull allowing better mechanical advantage and more motor in tyhe same space), etc.
All of this costs money... a lot of money. These types of drivers may cost more than $500 each just raw driver cost. Not practical for most bass guitar applications IME.
Sorry got side tracked.
I think there is some good information to be found in this thread.
First off Jimmy I'm not mad at all. Not sure where you got that.
Agedhorse I would agree with what you said about 4 ohm cabs. Doesn't really speak to anything being different about my 4 ohming these cabs over the other 4 ohm cabs in the market place. As I said before this is probably a moot point, just thought I'd ask the question.
As far as replacing drivers that would be way more expensive than a re cone. I could probably re cone the drivers twice for less than new drivers, if for some reason I did not like it.
I can see why there aren't many small 4 ohm cabs available in the market due to the amount of power that could be put in them.
There are a few 4 ohm 15's out there and haven't seen a rash of blown drivers mentioned here. 4 ohm 2x10's are much more available.
Like I said just asking the question.
I think there is some good information to be found in this thread.
First off Jimmy I'm not mad at all. Not sure where you got that.
Agedhorse I would agree with what you said about 4 ohm cabs. Doesn't really speak to anything being different about my 4 ohming these cabs over the other 4 ohm cabs in the market place. As I said before this is probably a moot point, just thought I'd ask the question.
As far as replacing drivers that would be way more expensive than a re cone. I could probably re cone the drivers twice for less than new drivers, if for some reason I did not like it.
I can see why there aren't many small 4 ohm cabs available in the market due to the amount of power that could be put in them.
There are a few 4 ohm 15's out there and haven't seen a rash of blown drivers mentioned here. 4 ohm 2x10's are much more available.
Like I said just asking the question.
That difference between the Crest/QSC and the LMIII could be due to the LMIII's preamp voicing rather than any lack of reserve power. You'd have to bypass the LMIII's preamp and just use its power amp with whatever you were using as a preamp for the Crest or QSC to make an accurate comparison. The same will apply to the SM. If I recall correctly, Bass Gear Magazine plotted the SM's preamp voicing and it's very bass shy and bright. The preamp will drastically affect how it sounds compared to your Crest/QSC rigs.
I do agree that voicing can make a difference. The thing I'm talking about is definitely not in the voicing. This is bone crushing rigidity I'm talking about not differences in Low Mids. I also think the dampening factor is of relevance as well. With a higher powered quality amp there is more dampening = more excursion control. Hope I spelled that right.
Red, I use the 2x10 format exclusively. One to rehearse with, two to gig with and all four when I want to be a little crazy. They are all 4Ω.
While I agree there is a lot to be said for a honking great power amp, I feel obsessing about wringing the last watt out of your equipment is not very constructive. You'll be running the amp flat out all night long. Yes the amp should be able to take the abuse but MI amps in general tend not to be as robust as their power amp relatives.
That last few watts will probably never get used unless you are in a very loud band. Using my standard gig rig I have 700W available and I tend to be a fairly prominent player. I doubt if I am using half of that power and I have headroom in boatloads.
However, as I said earlier, your money, your equipment - do as you will.
Paul
While I agree there is a lot to be said for a honking great power amp, I feel obsessing about wringing the last watt out of your equipment is not very constructive. You'll be running the amp flat out all night long. Yes the amp should be able to take the abuse but MI amps in general tend not to be as robust as their power amp relatives.
That last few watts will probably never get used unless you are in a very loud band. Using my standard gig rig I have 700W available and I tend to be a fairly prominent player. I doubt if I am using half of that power and I have headroom in boatloads.
However, as I said earlier, your money, your equipment - do as you will.
Paul
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,075
- 5
- 221,153
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
This is incorrect, they have not tested the ShuttleMax.
They tested the GBE-1200, and did not test the frequency response with the LF extend engaged which shifts the HPF down over 1/3 octave. Even so, it's only ~3dB down at 38Hz which is ideal for most medium sized cabinets, which helps avoid driver unloading and damage. With the LF extend engaged, this -3dB point is around 29Hz. I wouldn't characterize either as being "bass shy".
My comments regarding their inaccurate testing procedure for all amps is well documented and acknowledged by everybody concerned. Their test setup could not even deliver adequate line current for proper testing without excessive voltage drop. Big amps need big power under sine wave testing conditions. Their tech's failure to understand this basic concept doomed every test performed.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,075
- 5
- 221,153
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Completely irrelevant. The damping factor is so insignificant in ALL of today's high feedback solid state amplifiers as to be meaningless. It's an easy number and concept to market though, which is why it's so popular.
A far more important concept is reactive power and VI limiting interaction. This is what sets the "big dogs" apart from the "wannabe" power amps. It's also an incredably complex subject and difficult to explain in "marketing-speak". So they just don't pimp what they don't understand.
I feel ya, Red, but I have to agree with most of the responses- I don't think you'll get what you want by doing this recone thingy.
I have a TA501, similar to your LM amp. And I have two Goliath cabs, a II and a III. Both 8Ohms. And a 4Ohm Goliath Jr, which I have modified with a switch, to change from 4 to 16Ohms. Also an EpiUl310, and most recently,a Golight 4x10, 4Ohms. I bought the Golight to get as much out of the Mark amp as possible, to create a lightweight one-cab solution, which works for most of my gigs.
Some observations: Running the TA501 into the UL310(5.3Ohms) is loud. Either Goliath(8Ohms)is significantly louder. The 4Ohm Golight is louder still, but hardly. Very slight improvement with the drop in Ohmage. But what REALLY kicks is to run a Goliath and Goliath Jr. together, with the Jr. switched to 16Ohms, for a total load of 5.3Ohms. 6 10's, 5.3Ohms, absolutely blows away the Golight by itself, at 4Ohms. Stupid loud. Speakers, speakers, speakers.
So I'm sorry, but I think you need to dump the cabs you have and get different ones. I have no doubt that a Neo version of my 6x10 setup would be just killer. Another benefit of doing it the way I did it, with the 2x10 running at 16Ohms and the 4x10 at 8Ohms, is that the speakers all receive the same amount of power. Again, that rig kicks, seriously.
I have a TA501, similar to your LM amp. And I have two Goliath cabs, a II and a III. Both 8Ohms. And a 4Ohm Goliath Jr, which I have modified with a switch, to change from 4 to 16Ohms. Also an EpiUl310, and most recently,a Golight 4x10, 4Ohms. I bought the Golight to get as much out of the Mark amp as possible, to create a lightweight one-cab solution, which works for most of my gigs.
Some observations: Running the TA501 into the UL310(5.3Ohms) is loud. Either Goliath(8Ohms)is significantly louder. The 4Ohm Golight is louder still, but hardly. Very slight improvement with the drop in Ohmage. But what REALLY kicks is to run a Goliath and Goliath Jr. together, with the Jr. switched to 16Ohms, for a total load of 5.3Ohms. 6 10's, 5.3Ohms, absolutely blows away the Golight by itself, at 4Ohms. Stupid loud. Speakers, speakers, speakers.
So I'm sorry, but I think you need to dump the cabs you have and get different ones. I have no doubt that a Neo version of my 6x10 setup would be just killer. Another benefit of doing it the way I did it, with the 2x10 running at 16Ohms and the 4x10 at 8Ohms, is that the speakers all receive the same amount of power. Again, that rig kicks, seriously.
I do agree more speakers = more volume over more power.
Most of the arguments that have been presented have really been more talking about using 4 ohm cabs with these amps over what I was talking about.
So lets say it is more prudent not to run small 4 ohm cabs. OK got it.
Now lets forget about that and discuss the actual changing of the driver voice coils so the cabs are 4 ohms. What has already been said to the question need not be repeated. Anything to be added is welcome.
Now lets then say it is crazy to consider changing my current cabs and I need to go looking for some 4 ohm cabs. Well then it is a wash isn't it?
Also with minimum ohm loads I doubt I'd be working either of these amps that hard.
I just keep going back to that rigidity that I'm talking about with the bigger horse power on hand. Not using all that horse power mind you thus exceeding Xmax and making the drivers outies like Bonner was saying.
Also all drivers are not created equally. As I mentioned before, out of the newer SWR Cabs I have had they all seem to prefer the stoutness. I can use an Ampeg SVT 4x10 HLF as an example. Good sounding cab but it does not like to be pushed at all.
Most of the arguments that have been presented have really been more talking about using 4 ohm cabs with these amps over what I was talking about.
So lets say it is more prudent not to run small 4 ohm cabs. OK got it.
Now lets forget about that and discuss the actual changing of the driver voice coils so the cabs are 4 ohms. What has already been said to the question need not be repeated. Anything to be added is welcome.
Now lets then say it is crazy to consider changing my current cabs and I need to go looking for some 4 ohm cabs. Well then it is a wash isn't it?
Also with minimum ohm loads I doubt I'd be working either of these amps that hard.
I just keep going back to that rigidity that I'm talking about with the bigger horse power on hand. Not using all that horse power mind you thus exceeding Xmax and making the drivers outies like Bonner was saying.
Also all drivers are not created equally. As I mentioned before, out of the newer SWR Cabs I have had they all seem to prefer the stoutness. I can use an Ampeg SVT 4x10 HLF as an example. Good sounding cab but it does not like to be pushed at all.
