• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Reiner Amplification Megathread

That brand new Bergantino B-Amp is pretty darn cool, but as much as I love Jim's products, I've got no GAS for it.... I want TUBES! There's something special about them even when running squeaky clean.

On that note: any updates, Jon? I'm having a busy January, but my February is pretty much wide open for a trip up to northeast Maryland (hint, hint). ;)

Hi Ken!

Going to work on it this weened so Im hoping to get it done! Feb would be perfect!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fuzzbass
That brand new Bergantino B-Amp is pretty darn cool, but as much as I love Jim's products, I've got no GAS for it.... I want TUBES! There's something special about them even when running squeaky clean.

On that note: any updates, Jon? I'm having a busy January, but my February is pretty much wide open for a trip up to northeast Maryland (hint, hint). ;)

Just finished yours Ken! I'll tidy everything up, burn it in, apply Loctite and silicone, and then she'll be ready to make some noise!

Then it's on to thumbsandfingers and G4string's units.

image.jpg
 
Last edited:
Number one has been released into the wild!

Had a good hang with Frank today. He brought SN#1 of the 1U 12ax7 for comparison, and we also played around with the BoT. Good stuff.

Frank has a gig tomorrow so hopefully he'll report in on Sunday.
Questions for Frank and JGR: Typing on my phone and trying to remember old posts, so apologies in advance.

Jonathan, I think you said something awhile back having the preamp section of the Studio 1200 interact with a reactive load of some kind before the signal goes to the power section, to emulate to some degree the feel and not just the harmonic complexity of a tube amp. Am I remembering this right? If so, would you elaborate on how this works - if not the technical bits, then on how it's experienced by the player? Is there a palpable "give" or is it a very "stiff" amp? Would the Studio behave differently in this regard than, say, Frank's standalone pre (or any other pre you've made) plus a poweramp?

Frank and/or Jonathan, since you've heard and played the Box O' Tone, 1U pre, and Studio 1200 side by side, I'm curious as to any tone/feel similarities and differences you've noted. I did get to play the BoT briefly at Mike Arnopol's place some time back, so that's my frame of reference as far as Jonathan's stuff goes, though my memory of it (gloriously raw) might not be entirely accurate at this point.

I'm tempted to ask more, but I'll leave it for follow-up, if appropriate! Thanks for your indulgence.
Mark
 
Last edited:
Questions for Frank and JGR: Typing on my phone and trying to remember old posts, so apologies in advance.

Jonathan, I think you said something awhile back having the preamp section of the Studio 1200 interact with a reactive load of some kind before the signal goes to the power section, to emulate to some degree the feel and not just the harmonic complexity of a tube amp. Am I remembering this right? If so, would you elaborate on how this works - if not the technical bits, then on how it's experienced by the player? Is there a palpable "give" or is it a very "stiff" amp? Would the Studio behave differently in this regard than, say, Frank's standalone pre (or any other pre you've made) plus a poweramp?

Frank and/or Jonathan, since you've heard and played the Box O' Tone, 1U pre, and Studio 1200 side by side, I'm curious as to any tone/feel similarities and differences you've noted. I did get to play the BoT briefly at Mike Arnopol's place some time back, so that's my frame of reference as far as Jonathan's stuff goes, though my memory of it (gloriously raw) might not be entirely accurate at this point.

I'm tempted to ask more, but I'll leave it for follow-up, if appropriate! Thanks for your indulgence.
Mark

Hi Mark. Regarding the reactive load, that was for a different design that would include a tube power section that would subsequently feed a big SS power section.

There's a lot that goes into a design, whether tube, SS, or hybrid, that affects the feel and dynamics of an amp (as well as everything else). So I can make a very stiff, cold sounding tube amp, or a hybrid with a lot of warmth, sag, and compression that folks might interpret as "tubey" sounding. So, to a degree anyway, we can blur the line when it comes to hybrids that encompass the characteristics of a full tube head (if we so choose); things are compounded even more when we factor in what each person's interpretation is of what that should sound like. So I'll try to bound it a bit and take it on a case-by-case basis, because making generalizations is generally useless not to mention inaccurate...

The ICE unit I'm using will sound different than the cheaper, lower power modules that run bridged, but it sounds very close to my QSC PLX3602 in terms of output and slam, so it's doing what it should as a power amp. When I take the unbalanced preamp out of the Studio 1200 into the QSC, versus the tone and response of the internal amp, it's pretty close, but the internal amp actually sounds a bit nicer due to the transformer coupling - adding anything in the signal path affects the tone, and in this case, in addition to improved noise performance, there is a nice musicality that the transformer adds. I could probably come up with a more creative descriptor, but I'm pretty unromantic about this stuff and the whole sonic mojo thing. ;) So it sounds nice, just like the tubes do. :) The preamp circuitry driving the transformer also has a big impact. These are the things that should be addressed by the designer to optimize performance, rather than just dropping the power section in - they are plug n' play for someone with reasonable tech skills, but it's kind of like putting speakers in a box makes sound (but not necessarily a great speaker design), albeit to a much lesser degree. Point being, there are gains to be had from proper integration. The power amp I put together for Mike that you played through had a version of the Jensen transformer front end on it. It sounds great when being driven by an typical unbalanced preamp signal compared to no transformer - I tried it both ways. Mike mentioned that he liked the tone better without the transformer, but that is because he was using the balanced outs of the SF and my BoT, both of which have transformer balanced outs - so one too many transformers in the signal path. I tried the power unit being fed by both the balanced and unbalanced outs on my BoT before I sent it to him, and I agree. That said, I'm sure some folks would prefer it the other way.

In terms of the Studio 1200, the power amp is solid and handles the transients without all the nasty artifacts of the smaller modules which is exactly what I want as a designer. It's a blank canvas. I can control the overall feel of the amp through the rest of the circuit design - voltage levels, filter capacitance, and the driver circuitry. The BoT runs the tubes at very high voltages, and coupled with how the gain stages are configured, translates into a huge dynamic range before the signal is compressed, along with the nice tube edge on top - but it doesn't distort. The Studio 1200 is similar, but obviously the 12au7 front end versus the 6SL7 of the BoT will have a big impact, with the 12au7 being a bit smoother. A 12au7 front end in the BoT would make it a bit cleaner like the SF, but still retain the dynamics and tone that real high voltage provides (I've been meaning to build one in this configuration, along with some other upgrades I have planned). The big challenge of the Studio 1200 was to keep the sonic purity of the BoT, but with a powerful EQ - EQ presents all kinds of challenges, but I came up with something pretty unique that works very well IMO - it's insanely powerful but very musical and intuitive to use at the same time. I've tailored the feel/response/touch sensitivity to provide what I like in an amp regardless of topology - it's not stiff or slow - there is that nice cushion from the subtle compression and harmonics that tubes provide, along with the clarity and dynamic range I want in a bass amp. I've had a lot of great gear over the years, some all tube, some hybrid, some all SS, and they all got me where I wanted to go to some degree - now that I build my own stuff, it's just a matter of getting where I want to go with the parts I have at my disposal.
 
Last edited:
Hi Mark. Regarding the reactive load, that was for a different design that would include a tube power section that would subsequently feed a big SS power section.

There's a lot that goes into a design, whether tube, SS, or hybrid, that affects the feel and dynamics of an amp (as well as everything else). So I can make a very stiff, cold sounding tube amp, or a hybrid with a lot of warmth, sag, and compression that folks might interpret as "tubey" sounding. So, to a degree anyway, we can blur the line when it comes to hybrids that encompass the characteristics of a full tube head (if we so choose); things are compounded even more when we factor in what each person's interpretation is of what that should sound like. So I'll try to bound it a bit and take it on a case-by-case basis, because making generalizations is generally useless not to mention inaccurate...

The ICE unit I'm using will sound different than the cheaper, lower power modules that run bridged, but it sounds very close to my QSC PLX3602 in terms of output and slam, so it's doing what it should as a power amp. When I take the unbalanced preamp out of the Studio 1200 into the QSC, versus the tone and response of the internal amp, it's pretty close, but the internal amp actually sounds a bit nicer due to the transformer coupling - adding anything in the signal path affects the tone, and in this case, in addition to improved noise performance, there is a nice musicality that the transformer adds. I could probably come up with a more creative descriptor, but I'm pretty unromantic about this stuff and the whole sonic mojo thing. ;) So it sounds nice, just like the tubes do. :) The preamp circuitry driving the transformer also has a big impact. These are the things that should be addressed by the designer to optimize performance, rather than just dropping the power section in - they are plug n' play for someone with reasonable tech skills, but it's kind of like putting speakers in a box makes sound (but not necessarily a great speaker design), albeit to a much lesser degree. Point being, there are gains to be had from proper integration. The power amp I put together for Mike that you played through had a version of the Jensen transformer front end on it. It sounds great when being driven by an typical unbalanced preamp signal compared to no transformer - I tried it both ways. Mike mentioned that he liked the tone better without the transformer, but that is because he was using the balanced outs of the SF and my BoT, both of which have transformer balanced outs - so one too many transformers in the signal path. I tried the power unit being fed by both the balanced and unbalanced outs on my BoT before I sent it to him, and I agree. That said, I'm sure some folks would prefer it the other way.

In terms of the Studio 1200, the power amp is solid and handles the transients without all the nasty artifacts of the smaller modules which is exactly what I want as a designer. It's a blank canvas. I can control the overall feel of the amp through the rest of the circuit design - voltage levels, filter capacitance, and the driver circuitry. The BoT runs the tubes at very high voltages, and coupled with how the gain stages are configured, translates into a huge dynamic range before the signal is compressed, along with the nice tube edge on top - but it doesn't distort. The Studio 1200 is similar, but obviously the 12au7 front end versus the 6SL7 of the BoT will have a big impact, with the 12au7 being a bit smoother. A 12au7 front end in the BoT would make it a bit cleaner like the SF, but still retain the dynamics and tone that real high voltage provides (I've been meaning to build one in this configuration, along with some other upgrades I have planned). The big challenge of the Studio 1200 was to keep the sonic purity of the BoT, but with a powerful EQ - EQ presents all kinds of challenges, but I came up with something pretty unique that works very well IMO - it's insanely powerful but very musical and intuitive to use at the same time. I've tailored the feel/response/touch sensitivity to provide what I like in an amp regardless of topology - it's not stiff or slow - there is that nice cushion from the subtle compression and harmonics that tubes provide, along with the clarity and dynamic range I want in a bass amp. I've had a lot of great gear over the years, some all tube, some hybrid, some all SS, and they all got me where I wanted to go to some degree - now that I build my own stuff, it's just a matter of getting where I want to go with the parts I have at my disposal.

It's amazing what shifting the bias point of a gain stage does. I've been fooling around with bias in the first stage of my 12AU7 DI between high voltage with high plate current vs lower voltage/low plate current and you can really hear what happens when you shift between more and less linear spots on the plate curves.
 
Lot of family stuff this weekend, but I just wrapped up #2; Fuzzbass will pick it up this weekend!

Can't wait! :thumbsup:

On the downside, February is the black hole in my calendar: no gigs. :bored: All I have are some basement rehearsals where I'll use the Studio 1200 with a single Berg CN112. Next gig is March 7th with the loud rock band, so that'll be a proper test. NV610!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: JGR
This has probably been covered elsewhere in the thread, but what's the word on 2-ohm stability?
I think it's fine in terms of thermal stability, but if you push it into clipping, the protect circuit will activate and the sound drops out for a second, so I wouldn't run it that way unless you are going to watch the volume/transients. I called it good at 2.7 because I don't run into that issue - I can chug along and hit the soft clip on normal transients with no issues. Now, when Frank was here, we ran it at 2.7 into his three 112 cabs, and it was fine but when we drove it way into clipping - running close to max, and then aggressively slapping to produce a big transient, we were able to activate the protect. But under normal operation/playing, it's not an issue. The soft clip activates at a pretty low THD so things are still clean - it isn't a hard limiter, so if you crank it, it does keep getting louder but with more THD. The module is able to power an additional 1000 watt hanger module, so it's coasting along pretty easy operating by itself.
 
Hi Mark. Regarding the reactive load, that was for a different design that would include a tube power section that would subsequently feed a big SS power section.

There's a lot that goes into a design, whether tube, SS, or hybrid, that affects the feel and dynamics of an amp (as well as everything else). So I can make a very stiff, cold sounding tube amp, or a hybrid with a lot of warmth, sag, and compression that folks might interpret as "tubey" sounding. So, to a degree anyway, we can blur the line when it comes to hybrids that encompass the characteristics of a full tube head (if we so choose); things are compounded even more when we factor in what each person's interpretation is of what that should sound like. So I'll try to bound it a bit and take it on a case-by-case basis, because making generalizations is generally useless not to mention inaccurate...

The ICE unit I'm using will sound different than the cheaper, lower power modules that run bridged, but it sounds very close to my QSC PLX3602 in terms of output and slam, so it's doing what it should as a power amp. When I take the unbalanced preamp out of the Studio 1200 into the QSC, versus the tone and response of the internal amp, it's pretty close, but the internal amp actually sounds a bit nicer due to the transformer coupling - adding anything in the signal path affects the tone, and in this case, in addition to improved noise performance, there is a nice musicality that the transformer adds. I could probably come up with a more creative descriptor, but I'm pretty unromantic about this stuff and the whole sonic mojo thing. ;) So it sounds nice, just like the tubes do. :) The preamp circuitry driving the transformer also has a big impact. These are the things that should be addressed by the designer to optimize performance, rather than just dropping the power section in - they are plug n' play for someone with reasonable tech skills, but it's kind of like putting speakers in a box makes sound (but not necessarily a great speaker design), albeit to a much lesser degree. Point being, there are gains to be had from proper integration. The power amp I put together for Mike that you played through had a version of the Jensen transformer front end on it. It sounds great when being driven by an typical unbalanced preamp signal compared to no transformer - I tried it both ways. Mike mentioned that he liked the tone better without the transformer, but that is because he was using the balanced outs of the SF and my BoT, both of which have transformer balanced outs - so one too many transformers in the signal path. I tried the power unit being fed by both the balanced and unbalanced outs on my BoT before I sent it to him, and I agree. That said, I'm sure some folks would prefer it the other way.

In terms of the Studio 1200, the power amp is solid and handles the transients without all the nasty artifacts of the smaller modules which is exactly what I want as a designer. It's a blank canvas. I can control the overall feel of the amp through the rest of the circuit design - voltage levels, filter capacitance, and the driver circuitry. The BoT runs the tubes at very high voltages, and coupled with how the gain stages are configured, translates into a huge dynamic range before the signal is compressed, along with the nice tube edge on top - but it doesn't distort. The Studio 1200 is similar, but obviously the 12au7 front end versus the 6SL7 of the BoT will have a big impact, with the 12au7 being a bit smoother. A 12au7 front end in the BoT would make it a bit cleaner like the SF, but still retain the dynamics and tone that real high voltage provides (I've been meaning to build one in this configuration, along with some other upgrades I have planned). The big challenge of the Studio 1200 was to keep the sonic purity of the BoT, but with a powerful EQ - EQ presents all kinds of challenges, but I came up with something pretty unique that works very well IMO - it's insanely powerful but very musical and intuitive to use at the same time. I've tailored the feel/response/touch sensitivity to provide what I like in an amp regardless of topology - it's not stiff or slow - there is that nice cushion from the subtle compression and harmonics that tubes provide, along with the clarity and dynamic range I want in a bass amp. I've had a lot of great gear over the years, some all tube, some hybrid, some all SS, and they all got me where I wanted to go to some degree - now that I build my own stuff, it's just a matter of getting where I want to go with the parts I have at my disposal.
Jonathan, thanks for the clarification re the reactive load and for the thorough answer beyone that. I want to ask more, but for now I'll content myself with just saying thanks!
 
  • Like
Reactions: JGR
JGR, just making my weekend check-in to see if you might have any news to share with us?

Fuzzbass just took possession of #2 today!

Edit: and I just got over some really nasty food poisoning. Hurling fish is so not fun. :/
 
Last edited:
15%2B-%2B1.jpg


We cranked #2 up at Jonathan's house, through his Berg NV412 and a couple of cabs he's designed and built. In short, it has all the goodness of the prototype if not more. After I got it home, I plugged it in (above). I'm staying in a condo apartment so I couldn't give it any kind of volume, but it brought out the very best of the CN112. No disrespect to my Aggie TH500, it's a fine little amp, but the Studio 1200 is on a much higher plane. The tone is glorious: all the clarity and tube shimmer of the Alembic F2B, Read Purity, and Jon's 1U tube preamp. The Studio 1200 is not designed to produce as much overdrive as the JGR 1U (unless you start cranking tone controls), but that is fine with me, I rarely dial in fuzz at the gig and when I do it's just for fun and not necessity.

I won't be able to crank it up until my gig schedule gets busy again in March -- full gig report(s) to follow. Until then, all I have are a few basement rehearsals through a single CN112: at least I'll get to crank up a little bit.

P.S. The nerd in me is pleased that I have serial #2 of his 1U 12ax pre, and serial #2 of his Studio 1200!
 
Last edited: