Reiner Amplification Megathread

[MarkA]

Quick note on the clips: When I'm playing live, I'll often (but not always) roll the tone back a bit at the bass. When I'm trying out an amp, pre, recording device, etc., I'll usually leave everything wide open. I want to hear how it handles the highest frequencies and I figure it's easier to take something away than to add it in. The RJ pickups are more open up top than I'm used to.

 

[MarkA]

Tonight's will be quick:

Busy day -- gone for most of it. By the time I got home, it was too late to amp up (I still did for a bit, really quietly, but then went to 'phones). Still wanted to record something a little more refined than what I did yesterday -- and I did, and it was okay, but still a self-conscious demo. Then I forgot about making a demo and started playing around... Recorded this little sketch that I like more and, coincidentally, that I think shows a more refined side of the BoT (or a less heavy-handed side of me playing through it).



Recorded direct, same bass and setup as before.

This time, volume on the BoT is just past 9:00.
Variable impedance is a hair past noon.
Bass and Treble boosts are engaged. Gain boost is not.

There are two tracks -- the one panned toward the left is on the neck pickup; toward the right, both pickups. Tone controls are wide open. No effects of any kind applied to the recording.

The sketch ties in a bit with a story I read the other day. Bonus points if you can identify which. No worries if you don't!

 

[Kirk Bryant]

MarkA; I'll be damned if that didn't sound great. I am trying to wrap my head around all the subtleties of the different settings. The biggest distraction for me though is that my Power Jazz bass Special sounds NOTHING like yours, so I guess the Reed James pickups have completely changed the sound of that bass. I have been planning to sell my PJBS for months but now you've messed up my mind about it. I've been following this thread since its inception but alas I've been unemployed so long I don't know if I'll ever get the chance to try this amp. So until then I will continue to enjoy it vicariously through you guys. Keep the sound bytes coming.

 

[MarkA]

MarkA; I'll be damned if that didn't sound great. I am trying to wrap my head around all the subtleties of the different settings. The biggest distraction for me though is that my Power Jazz bass Special sounds NOTHING like yours, so I guess the Reed James pickups have completely changed the sound of that bass. I have been planning to sell my PJBS for months but now you've messed up my mind about it. I've been following this thread since its inception but alas I've been unemployed so long I don't know if I'll ever get the chance to try this amp. So until then I will continue to enjoy it vicariously through you guys. Keep the sound bytes coming.

Dude, I should not be awake, but if I am perhaps it's to tell you to think more than twice before getting rid of that bass.

Now, I've never even seen another in real life and mine (an '88 that I got second-hand in '90 - my first bass) has never been stock while I've had it. It came to me with a Badass II and EMGs, which it had until very recently, so I've never heard a stock one (though I've heard good things about them), but it has always sounded great to me. Mine sounds good to me unplugged, too - responsive, even, and articulate. It could use a bit of tweaking to the setup now, and I think I might hear a high fret in the recording (could just be setup, too), but it's the one. For me. All the others could go and I'd be okay (maybe better off in some ways), but your PJBS isn't my PJBS - every bass iis different, every player is different, and I am SO a biased party here.

I did go through a period of disenchantment with my bass after a long layoff from playing - What's with that square neck-heel? Restrictive cutaway? Only four strings? - and if I were having a bass built for me today, it would be with some updates to the Fender design, but that bass feels so right to me, ergonomic shortcomings and all, and plays better than a bunch of boutique basses I've tried, though some edge it out in some respects...

Ramble, ramble, ramble. Those are my feelings about my bass. Trust your feelings about yours over mine! PM me if you wanna talk more.

And thanks! The BoT deserves some credit, too.

 

[MarkA]

Hey, guys, pardon my tired derail of last night. Kirk, pardon my less-than-objective projection of my feelings regarding my bass onto your situation with yours. For me, "Power Jazz Bass Special" is an incantation from my youth with magical powers, like "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" (IIII have the POW-ERRR!) or "Shelby GT-500 KR" (before my time, but I had a car-crush on it for awhile), so it's natural that it would provoke a strong reaction.

I glanced at your profile -- it looks like you'll still be okay for basses if you sell the PJBS so, again, I'd concentrate on how yours sounds and feels to you rather than how some other guy's sounds in a recording on the internet (not that I'm not flattered that you like it). That said, sometimes you hear/feel potential in a piece of gear that isn't quite realized yet. Mystique aside, the PJBS is basically a nice P/J with a jazz neck, the coils of the Precision pickup flipped (near as I can tell) along the center-line of a traditional placement (some reverse-Ps leave the E-A coil where it is and move the D-G coil to the other side of it, placing it a good deal closer to the neck), and the Jazz-pickup (again, near as I can tell) midway between 60s and 70s placement. No matter what pickups you have in there, that arrangement is going to behave at least a little differently than a "normal" P, J, or P/J. I could elaborate on this but, instead, I'll say to spend some time playing it with the P-soloed next to your other P-basses and pay attention to how it feels/sounds when you cross strings. Play with both pickups up, next to your P/Js and Js, and do the same. Play it acoustically in a quiet room. If you like what you hear and feel unplugged and like the basic character of the plugged-in sound but feel that it's muffled/too bassy/whatever (the kinds of things that make you say, "I dig the bass, but it needs new pickups!") then maybe consider that. If it feels wrong to you, or if the more traditional Ps feel more "right", then maybe put the Power Jazz up for adoption (make sure it goes to a good home!). You could even use the adoption fees toward a BoT, if you like, when Jonathan brings them to market.

As for pickups, both the EMGs that served this bass well for 25 years and the Reeds that are on there now are on the open/clear side, if you dig that.

The BoT is very much on the open/clear side, as well... I'm not sure how much comes across in the recordings, but so far in person it strikes me as open and revealing but solid. Detailed with a big dynamic range. It's worth noting that the same bass with the same pickups can sound significantly different through another preamp. I'm not ready to use the word "transparent" just yet (and it is a loaded word on TB), but it seems, to me, to enliven what's already there rather than to color it in an obvious way. I'll see about making some recordings with the bass straight into the recording interface for reference (come to think of it, I could have run a line from the "Through" on the front of the BoT last night, if I'd been thinking of that).

Jonathan, is the "Through" on the BoT buffered, or is it totally passive? Will it work if there's no power to the BOT?

 

[monkeyfinger]

@JGR: How does the preamp section of the SuperBOT differ from the preamp stage of the Studio 1200? Do you see incorporating any of the design features of the SBOT into the 1200?

 

[JGR]

Jonathan, is the "Through" on the BoT buffered, or is it totally passive? Will it work if there's no power to the BOT?

Mark, the "through" is not buffered, so it will work if there is no power to the BoT. Thanks for the observations and recordings - keep 'em coming!

 

[MarkA]

Re. "all the subtleties of the different settings" one thing I like about the boost switches is that they're engaged or not (engaging them in different combinations yields worthwhile results, though). I'm a tweaker and, at least in this one area, it keeps me from tweaking too much. You could say that this is un-subtle, but it means that I am either forced or more free (depending on your point of view) to concentrate on the subtleties of what I'm doing with my hands (or the tone knobs, or the pickup blend, if you want to focus on that). While the boosts are subtle (engaging the bass boost is not, on its own, going to get you into insta-Dub or Reggaeton), I like that I don't hear any funky artifacts (like phasing issues) from engaging them, like can sometimes be heard with certain EQs (albeit usually at more extreme settings than employed with the switches). Everything sounds clear and coherent.

The variable impedance still needs to be explored. I'll get to it sometime, probably.

 

[JGR]

@JGR: How does the preamp section of the SuperBOT differ from the preamp stage of the Studio 1200? Do you see incorporating any of the design features of the SBOT into the 1200?

The Super BoT is different in that it is using a 6SL7 rather than a 12au7 for the front end. I took some of the EQ ideas from the Studio and applied them to the BoT's circuitry. There's not much to add to the Studio since it already has a five-band EQ and full DI, other than maybe the gain boost, but I don't think it would work as well with the different front end... but on that line, I'd like to build a Studio 1200 with a 6SL7 front end at some point. I have been thinking about other adaptations to the Super BoT architecture in terms of EQ, compression, overdrive etc. to mate with a power section for another amp design, so sorta-kinda in that regard...

 

[monkeyfinger]

The wheels never start turning for you, do they @JGR?

 

[JGR]

Re. "all the subtleties of the different settings" one thing I like about the boost switches is that they're engaged or not. I'm a tweaker and, at least in this one area, it keeps me from tweaking too much. You could say that this is un-subtle, but it means that I am either forced or more free (depending on your point of view) to concentrate on the subtleties of what I'm doing with my hands (or the tone knobs, or the pickup blend, if you want to focus on that). While the boosts are subtle (engaging the bass boost is not, on its own, going to get you into insta-Dub or Reggaeton), I like that I don't hear any funky artifacts (like phasing issues) from engaging them, like can sometimes be heard with certain EQs (albeit usually at more extreme settings than employed with the switches). Everything sounds clear and coherent.

The variable impedance still needs to be explored. I'll get to it sometime, probably.

Mark, you bring up a good point that is close to my heart in terms of design philosophy - in general, I like to dial in designs as much as possible to remove user options - only when I can't decide on which configuration I like better do I make it user selectable. I think it works based on the range of players using my gear, all with different styles and equipment, the majority of whom end up running close to "flat"!

The challenge with the BoT's "Super" update was to add some additional frequency shaping that was useful - nothing gimmicky, too subtle, or too extreme - without compromising the purity of the basic circuit. Hence the gain boost which provides a stepped response, and the low and high boosts lifted from the Studio's EQ design. The other change from the original BoT you played is the huge plastic power supply cabs which add a lot of clarity and detail to the tone; could be a bit sterile with a SS design, but the high voltage tubes balance things out (I think).

 

[JGR]

The wheels never start turning for you, do they @JGR?

No, and they have been spinning a LOT lately.

The Studio's preamp was conceived during long nights spent up with my newborn daughter is a semi-conscious, sleep-deprived state. We are expecting our second child in October, and somehow all pressure I put on myself to get the long list of projects done before then has a similar effect - kicks the hyper-active subconscious into high gear. So many ideas, so little time (and money).

 

[MarkA]

Mark, you bring up a good point that is close to my heart in terms of design philosophy - in general, I like to dial in designs as much as possible to remove user options - only when I can't decide on which configuration I like better do I make it user selectable. I think it works based on the range of players using my gear, all with different styles and equipment, the majority of whom end up running close to "flat"!

The challenge with the BoT's "Super" update was to add some additional frequency shaping that was useful - nothing gimmicky, too subtle, or too extreme - without compromising the purity of the basic circuit. Hence the gain boost which provides a stepped response, and the low and high boosts lifted from the Studio's EQ design. The other change from the original BoT you played is the huge plastic power supply cabs which add a lot of clarity and detail to the tone; could be a bit sterile with a SS design, but the high voltage tubes balance things out (I think).

Was talking with my brother about this yesterday -- would be interesting to hear the two side by side. I have some memories of the original, but I played that a year ago (though I'm lucky that I'm getting to play both through the same cab, if not at the same time).

I wouldn't call the SuperBot sterile by any stretch, but I recall the original "bristling" more. This one seems like the original (teenage?) Box O Tone grew up some -- which might or might not make it more appropriate for me. (Do you make a Saturday morning cartoons version?) I also recall it having, relative to the rest of its range, a very slightly wooly low end (though it balanced nicely with the tight low end of the MAS 112). The current iteration strikes me as tighter and more controlled throughout -- even and detailed -- though still muscular and present. Enough adjectives! Still have to play with it more, and I am hearing them a year apart, but those are my impressions of the two relative to each other.

Do you still have an original Box O' Tone? Is one extant?

 

[JGR]

Was talking with my brother about this yesterday -- would be interesting to hear the two side by side. I have some memories of the original, but I played that a year ago (though I'm lucky that I'm getting to play both through the same cab, if not at the same time).

I wouldn't call the SuperBot sterile by any stretch, but I recall the original "bristling" more. This one seems like the original (teenage?) Box O Tone grew up some -- which might or might not make it more appropriate for me. (Do you make a Saturday morning cartoons version?) I also recall it having, relative to the rest of its range, a very slightly wooly low end (though it balanced nicely with the tight low end of the MAS 112). The current iteration strikes me as tighter and more controlled throughout -- even and detailed -- though still muscular and present. Enough adjectives! Still have to play with it more, and I am hearing them a year apart, but those are my impressions of the two relative to each other.

Do you still have an original Box O' Tone? Is one extant?

I have the original one that you played and I think it is working though it's a mess - it has been hacked up a lot since then from further prototyping (it's always easier for me to mess with something working than build something from the ground to tweak - downside is my personal gear is always a mess). I think your recollection is accurate - the original BoT you played through had slightly different filter cap values from the final iteration which, along with the types of cap (electrolytic vs. poly), largely attributes to the differences you are describing between the two units.

 

[Fuzzbass]

I'm a tweaker and, at least in this one area, it keeps me from tweaking too much.

Ha! The 5-band on the Studio 1200 is capable of a lot of tweakage, that's for sure. I try to keep everything at noon, but when the volume goes up and my earplugs go in, it's hard not to mess with EQ.

That said, it's wonderful to know that noon is flat. Much as I loved my Alembic F2B, I don't miss the Fender circuit. (I know, 2-10-2.... whatever). And boosting gain can give that little extra tube warmth.

Anyway, thanks for the amazing sound samples from the BoT. The subtle tone differences are audible. I have to say that a BoT 1200 would sorely tempt me to (re)open my wallet!

 

[silky smoove]

I've never understood that Fender tone stack. I get how it functions, but I don't get how it was a good idea. I'd rather have three cut-only bands.

@JGR has been posting some great pictures of five 1200s being built over the last few days. I think one of them is mine. If not than the drool on the keyboard has been for naught.

 

[dukeorock]

I'm mostly thrilled that I've had the chance to play through the Super BoT, S1200 and the 6SL7 pre. Only problem is I want them all now

 

[thumbs&fingers]

1st world bass player problems. Also.....should I play my dingwall AB1..........or Yamaha attitude.......


Either way I will BE heard......which is also the response to the above post. JGR I think this should be on a t shirt with a pic of your amps all on top of each other.

 

[MarkA]

Ha! The 5-band on the Studio 1200 is capable of a lot of tweakage, that's for sure. I try to keep everything at noon, but when the volume goes up and my earplugs go in, it's hard not to mess with EQ.

That said, it's wonderful to know that noon is flat. Much as I loved my Alembic F2B, I don't miss the Fender circuit. (I know, 2-10-2.... whatever). And boosting gain can give that little extra tube warmth.

Anyway, thanks for the amazing sound samples from the BoT. The subtle tone differences are audible. I have to say that a BoT 1200 would sorely tempt me to (re)open my wallet!

Thanks, Ken. I'm no expert recordist, but I try. There's a good deal of the experience of playing that the clips can't communicate -- and different players would get different results with the same gear, of course -- but I hope that they give people some rough idea of what it's like.

Talked with Jonathan some yesterday. We discussed everything from the old BoT to the new BoT, the voicing of the filters, and the effects of different sizes and types of capacitors. Lots of time spent on capacitors -- who knew? One thing that came up is that the effects of the filters, while they can seem subtle in a D.I.ed track or a low-volume, mic'ed recording, will be felt more at higher volume. I was able to do some playing at higher volume and through different cabs last night and I found that to be true.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Wow MarkA I think you've got a man crush! Perhaps we should discuss adoption papers on my completly stock PJBS.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program of an amp I can only dream of affording one day. Buy hey Mark you could help in that department! Lol

Kirk out.