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Reliability and Tube vs. Solid State

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#81
I think people are using different definitions of 'reliability' in this thread.

If reliability means 'does one break more than the other' when used and transported properly, I would agree with those that say the 'reliability' of tube and SS amps should be identical.

If we are talking about maintaining the amps, a SS state amp should need virtually no maintenance, while a tube amp will typically need some tweeking (maybe biasing or new tubes) every once in a while. Again... to me not enough of a hassle to give one a huge advantage over the other.

Regarding 'ruggedness'... I would say that if you drop a transistor head and a tube head that is not in a shock rack from a few feet, the SS head has a better chance of coming out unscathed. However, the tube amp would probably just have some broken or unseated tubes, so again, if you have spares, which I assume tube amp users usually carry, again, not a deal breaker.

So, to me, it just comes down to sound preference, size and weight..... I'm lucky to actually prefer SS amps for my sound... hence I get massive watts in a two space, 15 to 20 pound head. I can totally understand why someone would choose to haul around an SVT though :D Just my 2 cents.
 
#83
BassIan said:
Mesa sells tubes. :rollno:
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This "Mesa sell tubes" attitude, so they inflate thier numbers when you should change tubes is ridicoulis.

So, every manufacturer that reccomends that their product be replaced at a certain time of use is lying to sell more product???

This argument is weak and insulting to the companies, as well as people who use common sense.

I have heard this over and over from "experts" only to have other "experts" completly disagree with it.

Use your own ears..change tubes when you can hear a difference in sound...they DO wear out.
 
#84
seamonkey said:
Seems like SS manufacturers are missing a good opportunity here. They should be putting SS devices on sockets and telling people they should change them out every 6 months.

This won't happen, because then don't need to.

No need to worry about overdriving SS amps out of their "linear" range - they've got much more power today than they ever had. And no good SS manufacturer would ever think of designing in nonlinearities just to allow them to push out more compressed watts.
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I'm tired of hearing you bitch on. And on. And on. I'm going to go and play my bass instead! :D
 
#85
seamonkey said:
Seems like SS manufacturers are missing a good opportunity here. They should be putting SS devices on sockets and telling people they should change them out every 6 months.

This won't happen, because then don't need to.

No need to worry about overdriving SS amps out of their "linear" range - they've got much more power today than they ever had. And no good SS manufacturer would ever think of designing in nonlinearities just to allow them to push out more compressed watts.
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Well said!!! I just loved spending 1600.00 on a tube amp that distorts. What a deal!!
 
#87
seamonkey said:
Seems like SS manufacturers are missing a good opportunity here. They should be putting SS devices on sockets and telling people they should change them out every 6 months.

This won't happen, because then don't need to.

No need to worry about overdriving SS amps out of their "linear" range - they've got much more power today than they ever had. And no good SS manufacturer would ever think of designing in nonlinearities just to allow them to push out more compressed watts.
Click to expand...
I love the sound of an overdriving tube amp, cant beat it, now, take you SS amp and your tube emulation and try and get that sound . . .
 
#89
seamonkey said:
Seems like SS manufacturers are missing a good opportunity here. They should be putting SS devices on sockets and telling people they should change them out every 6 months.

This won't happen, because then don't need to.
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Not every 6 months, but eventually. Depends on the amp.

No need to worry about overdriving SS amps out of their "linear" range - they've got much more power today than they ever had. And no good SS manufacturer would ever think of designing in nonlinearities just to allow them to push out more compressed watts.
Click to expand...

Odds are that every amplifier will clip at some point in it's life. You'd be really surprised at how much clipping goes on under dynamic input, even at modest levels. That being said, more headroom is always better in an amp that's supposed to be transparent.

However, with tube amps (most instrument ones anyway), the 'supernatural' sound as you put it, comes mostly from how tube amps behave around their limits. I like that in an instrument amp, but I don't want it in a playback or a PA amplifier. I'm not a tube head per se, I appreciate all kinds of amps. I certainly don't think any one style of amp is useless.
 
#90
specplyrz said:
Why are people that have a different opinions here called names?
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Because its completly derailed the original point of the thread, which was reliability.

We are aware that tubes need changing
We are aware that Tubes amps overdrive when you turn up, its kind of the point for some people
We are aware that SS amps dont need as much maintainance

could we have some real world comparisions between the 2 or real world experience of using tube/ss in a gigging scenario rather than this endless bickering about things that are a given?
 
#92
specplyrz said:
Why are people that have a different opinions here called names?
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Opinions are one thing. "I don't like tube amps because I don't like how they sound" is an opinion. Stating facts such as "Tubes wear/change over time and MOSFETs don't, Ampeg says so" is not an opinion. It is stated as a fact, but has no foundation in science nor has it any proof. That is no longer an opinion. That is a fact which is wrong. The name calling arises from the inability/unwillingness of you (and others) to listen to the experts (I don't use the term "expert" lightly) who generate facts based on science and education.
 
#93
BassIan said:
Opinions are one thing. "I don't like tube amps because I don't like how they sound" is an opinion. Stating facts such as "Tubes wear/change over time and MOSFETs don't, Ampeg says so" is not an opinion. It is stated as a fact, but has no foundation in science nor has it any proof. That is no longer an opinion. That is a fact which is wrong. The name calling arises from the inability/unwillingness of you (and others) to listen to the experts (I don't use the term "expert" lightly) who generate facts based on science and education.
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Okay...then why do people "mock" mesa engineering for recomending tube change. They, after all are "experts" that design, test and build their gear.

By the way, tubes DO INDEED wear and change over time.
 
#95
specplyrz said:
Okay...then why do people "mock" mesa engineering for recomending tube change. They, after all are "experts" that design, test and build their gear.

By the way, tubes DO INDEED wear and change over time.
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Tubes wear, so do transistors!

Its just tubes dont wear out as fast as companies say, the companies are being overly conservative as to cover thier asses aswell as it being good marketing for them if they also sell tubes
 
#96
Mark Reccord said:
PWM/class D/Tripath amps still have a few bugs to be worked out, especially in how they behave at and beyond their linear limits. That's important because virtually every amp will be in that situation sometime.
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Well, to say they have "bugs to be worked out" overlooks the fact that many have been in use now for years.

It's not like they blow up on a daily basis :confused:
 
#97
specplyrz said:
Okay...then why do people "mock" mesa engineering for recomending tube change. They, after all are "experts" that design, test and build their gear.

By the way, tubes DO INDEED wear and change over time.
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"Mesa Engineering" is the name of a company. The department writing that literature is more likely "Mesa Marketing". I apply this generally, not to any specific company, but it's not likely the engineers who write the instructions or other literature. There are exceptions here, I realize.

I never said that tubes DO NOT wear. I merely said the assertions made above stating that MOSFETS do not change over time and tubes do, or that tubes need replacement every 6 months to a year are not based on facts or science, but based on what marketing literature has said.

People mock Mesa because their amplifiers have fixed bias. Mesa even denies that tubes change over time by supplying fixed bias amplifiers that cannot accommodate the drift in bias current that tubes undergo over time. Mesa sells their own brand of tube as the only kind that will work in their amplifiers because they fall within a "range" of bias current draws. Perhaps the 6 months to a year thing with them arises from the fact that bias current can drift enough after that period of time to be an issue in a fixed bias amplifier. You'll notice a large percentage of 400/400+ owners on this forum have had bias trim pots installed to combat this problem in an otherwise excellent amp.

All that causes problems with a topic like this is people who make statements as facts that have no basis in scientific knowledge of the topic. We pass over the realm of opinion and into exposition, where in any logical and educated discussion, proof is necessary.

seamonkey said:
Ooops - I'm going off topic again.
Yes there are some experts on this board and I respect that.
I'm no expert and I know that. But some experts are exerting opinion based on personal beliefs and experience which is not proof - just as much as I am.

I can only give proof from internet references, books, papers, etc. but and any time reference given on the internet it is rebuked. And quite honestly, while many class of SS amps are well documented and new papers published, nobody is really doing new studies on tubes. Same old tubes all the time. No new technology there. Nothing to break ground with. SS designs compare themselves against other SS designs and not generally tubes.

As I said, I got on this thread because it asked about reliability SS verses Tube - to which tubes are less reliable because they have fragile components and require regular maintenance. Please note - I'm staying out of threads about people who already made up their minds on tubes.
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Once again there are opinions on this topic (which sounds better), and there are facts on this topic (tubes and MOSFETs/other electrical devices ALL drift over time in their bias currents or other critical values). Opinions will differ, but consistent results will be arrived at via good experimental data. Many of the experts here are more than qualified to make assertions as they have in this discussion based on their data. This isn't a matter of people having "made up their minds." This is a matter of people having hard data.

As for the original topic, any *quality* amplifier will be reliable if you maintain it. EVERY amplifier requires maintenance. Cleanliness allows the amplifier to cool more effectively than if it's covered in dust. Tube bias should be checked if it can to accommodate for bias current drift. Jacks should be kept tight and pots kept clean. If the gear is used well and taken care of, it's rare that problems will come up for tube or solid state gear.
 
#98
BassIan said:
"Mesa Engineering" is the name of a company. The department writing that literature is more likely "Mesa Marketing". I apply this generally, not to any specific company, but it's not likely the engineers who write the instructions or other literature. There are exceptions here, I realize.

I never said that tubes DO NOT wear. I merely said the assertions made above stating that MOSFETS do not change over time and tubes do, or that tubes need replacement every 6 months to a year are not based on facts or science, but based on what marketing literature has said.

People mock Mesa because their amplifiers have fixed bias. Mesa even denies that tubes change over time by supplying fixed bias amplifiers that cannot accommodate the drift in bias current that tubes undergo over time. Mesa sells their own brand of tube as the only kind that will work in their amplifiers because they fall within a "range" of bias current draws. Perhaps the 6 months to a year thing with them arises from the fact that bias current can drift enough after that period of time to be an issue in a fixed bias amplifier. You'll notice a large percentage of 400/400+ owners on this forum have had bias trim pots installed to combat this problem in an otherwise excellent amp.

All that causes problems with a topic like this is people who make statements as facts that have no basis in scientific knowledge of the topic. We pass over the realm of opinion and into exposition, where in any logical and educated discussion, proof is necessary.



Once again there are opinions on this topic (which sounds better), and there are facts on this topic (tubes and MOSFETs/other electrical devices ALL drift over time in their bias currents or other critical values). Opinions will differ, but consistent results will be arrived at via good experimental data. Many of the experts here are more than qualified to make assertions as they have in this discussion based on their data. This isn't a matter of people having "made up their minds." This is a matter of people having hard data.

As for the original topic, any *quality* amplifier will be reliable if you maintain it. EVERY amplifier requires maintenance. Cleanliness allows the amplifier to cool more effectively than if it's covered in dust. Tube bias should be checked if it can to accommodate for bias current drift. Jacks should be kept tight and pots kept clean. If the gear is used well and taken care of, it's rare that problems will come up for tube or solid state gear.
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Thank you for the courtious reply...It IS appreciated.
 
#99
"Congratulations on your choice of the Big Block 750 as your Bass amplifier and
welcome to the MESA/Boogie family! As a discriminating player you probably know
that you have purchased the most comprehensive instrument for amplifying Bass that
is available.

The above is their TRANSISTOR AMP!!!


"Most musicians know that tube amps are unbeatable for guitar… but what about bass?
Isn't it better to have a big, clean, high-power transistor amplifier? We don't think so. And
our proof is that your Bass 400 Plus will offer superior tone and more usable power than
solid-state systems costing two to three times as much! In our years of research we have
made some surprising discoveries: the best sounding power amplifier for bass is quite
different than the one we use for guitar. And is very different than the best power designs
for keyboard or stereo fidelity. Transistor systems are designed primarily for "laboratory
conditions", not the real world of live music."



To everyone here...I CONCEDE!!! These two descriptions were taken from MESA's webpage. Do you think they contradic each other?? Well, do ya??? WHAT A LOAD!!! :spit:
 
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