Renegotiated Pay

[yodedude2]

i skipped a couple of pages...is the new agreement just words over a phone or is it signed and sealed somehow? if it is just words over the phone, how can anyone tell that it won't change again before the gig?

 

[LBS-bass]

Yeah if the crowd is sparse why pay a band at all? The venue should just make everyone happy cancel them and hire a solo act for $200.00. Everybody goes home happy.

100%

if the band isn’t bringing in people and the venue isn’t offering real exposure, it’s not a win for anyone. But an agreement is an agreement and it is not my problem if you hired the wrong band.

 

[Marko 1]

Is $25 less per person going to make you miss your mortgage payment? If the gig is fun and you want to play it, do it. If you want to stand on principle, do it, but don’t expect to play there again.

Thank you.

Listen to the rest of these guys and they'll end up breaking up the band over a few dollars.

OP, you said this was the first time it happened- it's not the end of the world, stop whining already,

you're gonna make more trouble than it's worth.

 

[LBS-bass]

Thank you.

Listen to the rest of these guys and they'll end up breaking up the band over a few dollars.

OP, you said this was the first time it happened- it's not the end of the world, stop whining already, you're gonna make more trouble than it's worth.

The point I’d make is why does he want to play there again?

 

[Mastermold]

If you're buying a house, principal is money. In this case, you mean principle, which isn't.

If it were my band, I'd be a bit miffed, but yes, as they started the re-negotiating, feel free to renegotiate other parts of the deal. Ideally, you should be keeping yh=our commitments, and doing business with people who keep their commitments. In the future, keep this in mind if the same people contact you to book you.

If it was a contract for $750 for 4 hours then how many hours does $650 buy them? Maybe 3.5 hours?

 

[BeMoreFrench]

Thank you.

Listen to the rest of these guys and they'll end up breaking up the band over a few dollars.

OP, you said this was the first time it happened- it's not the end of the world, stop whining already,

you're gonna make more trouble than it's worth.

Man... here the minimum wage for gigs declared to administrations that includes unemployement, healthcare and pension cotisations is 150€, makes 600€ for 4 musicians x 1.10 = 660 USD.

I say that 750 is being overpaid for a simple campground gig. You get 650 ? it's fair. It's only 2.50 bucks lost per musician after all, get the payback with drinks and a BIIIIIG meal hahaha

 

[Marko 1]

Take the hundred out of the guitar players pay. Serious. He cost you that money.

If I were the guitar player, and maybe screwed up (like all humans do, and for the first time according to the OP) and one guy wanted me to make up the money from my cut,

I'd give him the money, then tell him to go pound sand (using more colorful words) and replace his whiny ass.

 

[LBS-bass]

Man... here the minimum wage for gigs declared to administrations that includes unemployement, healthacre and pension cotisations is 150€, makes 600€ for 4 musicians x 1.10 = 660 USD.

I say that 750 is being overpaid for a simple campground gig. You get 650 ? it's fair. It's only 2.50 bucks lost per musician after all, get the payback with drinks and a BIIIIIG meal hahaha

Does that work even when you have a contract to play for more? So any big name act should, in theory, play for this low amount because it's the minimum wage? Nobody's entitled to negotiate a rate that's above minimum?

Come on, that's just silly. Maybe they are overpaid; they probably are since they can't fill the room. But there was an agreement in place and that is all that matters from a legal standpoint. Here in the US, verbal contracts are still contracts, and they are binding. The venue is at fault here, not just ethically but legally.

 

[Snarf]

We've had a labor day show scheduled at a campground for several months now. The band has gone through some changes, including a name change since then. Technically, it isn't the same band but we have the same core, me and the guitarist.

A couple days ago the guitarist, who booked the show, says the venue contacted him and asked what the pay was. He told them $750 is what he negotiated with Sean. This is for a 4 hour show, on labor day weekend. Debbie (the one who called up asking about the pay) says "I can't pay that much. Best I can do is $650." Guitarist agrees and then tells us about it. The guitarist now knows he should have asked us first, so I won't beat that point into the ground. I'm wondering why the venue didn't keep any records of this (maybe they did and are feigning ignorance). I'm wondering why Sean felt he could negotiate this if Debbie is the one paying the bills. I'm wondering why the guitarist doesn't have at least an email trail of the deal.

This might be a tactic by the venue to get us to back out so they can book someone else.

I suggested to the guitarist if they want to renegotiate, ok, but we will do a 3 hour show. It isn't about the money. It's the principle. What's gonna prevent these clowns from trying to renegotiate on the day of the show. Anyway, that's when he told me he'd already agreed to the reduced rate. He said he would talk to Sean, they are friendly, to find out who Debbie is and float the reduced play time.

The more I think on it, the grumpier I get. I think it's time to introduce some type of contract, paper trail, deposit system.

Quit that band.

 

[LBS-bass]

If I were the guitar player, and maybe screwed up (like all humans do, and for the first time according to the OP) and one guy wanted me to make up the money from my cut,

I'd give him the money, then tell him to go pound sand (using more colorful words) and replace his whiny ass.

And maybe the guitar player gets replaced instead, since he doesn't know his place and can't be bothered to consult the band on important details like pay.

 

[Marko 1]

Quit that band.

Yes, do them a favor.

 

[LBS-bass]

The number of people here who believe we thrive as musicians by bending over to take it where the sun does not shine is a never ending source of amusement and bewilderment to me, but it also illustrates to me exactly why gig pay has not changed since 1979.

 

[Marko 1]

The number of people here who believe we thrive as musicians by bending over to take it where the sun does not shine is a never ending source of amusement and bewilderment to me, but it also illustrates to me exactly why gig pay has not changed since 1979.

You've stated that you played for free, and spent more (I think on marketing) than you made at times.

So...

 

[LBS-bass]

You've stated that you've played for free, and spent more (I think on marketing) than you made at times.

So...

Exactly right because a band has to be built, and nobody ever made money without investing in their product. So many bands just think they can book gigs here and there doing the same old crap as everyone else, and somehow that will get them what and where they want to be.

It doesn't work like that. Bands have to be marketed and that takes cash. You want to call me stupid for that? I think that's shortsighted, and shortsighted is exactly what most bands are.

My band has a better following in less than two years than most band ever have. Do you think I'm planning on losing money forever? I'm not an idiot. Marketing and communications were two facets of the work I did as a career. I know what works and what doesn't and I don't need internet snarkers to educate me. I also made a handsome investment over the years, so I have plenty of money to prove myself right with. And if I'm wrong, nobody suffers. YMMV.

ETA: The money I spend (and lose) is on things like advertising and merchandise. I actually get my money back on merch, but I share those proceeds with the band because I don't mind giving them that extra. So I lose money on that by choice, because it's important to me that they are happy. Technically I get my money back on ads too, because there's no other band I play in that makes the kind of money in tips that we do. That's because of the ads bringing in the right kind of people who appreciate us. Almost all of my shows are a wash for me; I'm not losing much if anything, but the band members make money.

If I wanted to keep the merch money to recoup my investment, I certainly could. But I'd rather do it this way, as it encourages everyone else to contribute as they can. One member paid for photography. Another member brings and sets up PA when needed. Everyone contributes, and the fun thing about that is that we don't need to do everything by committee. I want to make a T-shirt design? I just do it. I don't have to consult with four other people.

It just so happens that money and marketing expertise is what I have to contribute.

 

[Marko 1]

Exactly right because a band has to be built, and nobody ever made money without investing in their product. So many bands just think they can book gigs here and there and somehow that will get them what and where they want to be. It doesn't work like that. Bands have to be marketed and that takes cash. You want to call me stupid for that? I think that's shortsighted, and shortsighted is exactly what most bands are.

My band has a better following in less than two years than most band ever have. Do you think I'm planning on losing money forever? I'm not an idiot. Marketing and communications were two facets of the work I did as a career. I know what works and what doesn't and I don't need internet snarkers to educate me. I also made a handsome investment so I have plenty of money to prove myself right with. YMMV.

So let the OP take the long view and suck up one mess-up.

The band (at least with him) won't grow if he whines and quits at the first sign of imperfection.

 

[LBS-bass]

So let the OP take the long view and suck up one mess-up.

I think the OPs guitarist is the one who messed up here, but regardless of how it works out or who does what, this band and venue seems like a mismatch if they can't get a crowd there.

 

[Slade N]

Wimmens don't like to be corrected. I believe I'm correct about that.

they dont, but doesnt mean that it shouldnt be done….the manner of delivery does make a difference however

 

[Altitude]

A bar manager calling a band in front of a future gig to talk them down from $750 to $650 is spectacularly unlikely.

There was never a $750 number. Here's what happened.

The guitarist booked the gig. Apparently nobody else in the band was in the discussion and, as we've seen, he didn't get a written confirmation.

Maybe he agreed to $650 to begin with, forgot, and told you guys he got $750. Eventually, the truth landed.

Maybe he didn't discuss the fee at all, assumed he could get $750, and when the time came to talk money he got $650.

Or something like that.

Either way, he knew he'd created an expectation of $750 by you guys, so he had to come up with a reason why that changed without looking like an idiot.

He's fabricated the story about Debbie reducing the agreed fee by the sum of three bar tabs. This would all foot more against human nature, or what I've learned about it at least.

Have fun at the gig, it's no big deal. Your guitarist is a fibber though.

 

[LBS-bass]

A bar manager calling a band in front of a future gig to talk them down from $750 to $650 is spectacularly unlikely.

There was never a $750 number. Here's what happened.

The guitarist booked the gig. Apparently nobody else in the band was in the discussion and, as we've seen, he didn't get a written confirmation.

Maybe he agreed to $650 to begin with, forgot, and told you guys he got $750. Eventually, the truth landed.

Maybe he didn't discuss the fee at all, assumed he could get $750, and when the time came to talk money he got $650.

Or something like that.

Either way, he knew he'd created an expectation of $750 by you guys, so he had to come up with a reason why that changed without looking like an idiot.

He's fabricated the story about Debbie reducing the agreed fee by the sum of three bar tabs. This would all foot more against human nature, or what I've learned about it at least.

Have fun at the gig, it's no big deal. Your guitarist is a fibber though.

Maybe you're right, but new ownership screams to me that this is a scenario not unlike what I described in post 59.

Renegotiated Pay

This is hardly unheard of.

 

[BeMoreFrench]

Does that work even when you have a contract to play for more? So any big name act should, in theory, play for this low amount because it's the minimum wage? Nobody's entitled to negotiate a rate that's above minimum?

Come on, that's just silly. Maybe they are overpaid; they probably are since they can't fill the room. But there was an agreement in place and that is all that matters from a legal standpoint. Here in the US, verbal contracts are still contracts, and they are binding. The venue is at fault here, not just ethically but legally.

Verbal contracts are nothing, words fly away, writings remains.

Debbie here is just doing what her boss is telling her to do, I've been at both sides of the gate: being legally hired with signed contracts and hiring musicians for recording sessions in studio (horn section most of the time). And I totally understand her point here: when you have to make ends meet, you do the job.

Deal is done deal is done. The negoatiator has accepted Debbie's deal, all the band has accepted, now if they're real pros they just have to shut up and do the job, period. This is what I call ethics. Now if they don't even have a person that is in charge of negotiating for the band and nothing else than negotiating, doing the paperwork for making it legit, they just have to ... shut up.

I've been in pro jazz and blues combos where a whole organization was doing all the legal job: prospecting, negociating, advertising, declaring us to administrations and finaly paying us, with a legal payslip. 3 people hired to do this.

That's how you do the things if you want to justify the amount of cash you REALLY want, that's what it takes to build a TRUE pro project.

EDIT: and just so you know, the organization was legal and registered Societe.com : RCS, siret, siren, bilan, l'information gratuite sur les entreprises du Registre du Commerce des Sociétés (RNCS)