Respect your elders

[Coypu]

Absolutely, I comlpetely agree.

...and by "add as much as they can" this to me, might mean not playing at all.

One of my new bands songs hasa key board bass part that sounded so good on keyboard I'm not playing it - I just play this cheesey little melody instead... and it works. Although it is tough NOT playing the bass usual role.

I can't argue with that but I think that a super good bassplayer can make thoose decisions alot better than a bad one but sure in the end it all comes down to what sounds good. Just as long as people practice as hard as they can so that they can create whatever that is in their heads then all is good.

Hmm.

Well, there's always a point in discussion...

If asked I would never say I was a fan of technical music. The concept of creating music specifically to be technical pretty much goes against every bone in my body.

Music is, to me, a form of expression. And akin to every other form of communication the simplest is nearly always the most effective.
In fact when I play I always aim to reduce my bassline to bare minimum... this leave me more space to play around in if needed/desired

But as you said, this doesnt mean what I play is not technical or easy.

I love jazz, I love fusion, I love drum & bass - heck I love almost all music. I own and listen to many records which could be considered technical, but I wont listen to something because it's technical - I'll listen to it because it's good.

Eventhough I disagree that the simplest way is often the most effective I still understand your view and since all this is down to each and his own taste I can't really argue with this. Just as long as we understand each others view then discussion on other taste based topics will be easier.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I know what you mean, Brad, and you're right--some of those old patches do make you squirm hearing them. To take WR as an example, I don't care for some of the synth sounds on Mr. Gone, but I love most all the sounds on Black Market. All I'm saying is that great tunes and great playing trump cheesy sounds. If I were playing blackjack, cheesy synth sounds would be a hand of 15 or 16, and great tunes and playing would be a 20 or 21.

 

[Howard K]

In other words, older-style recording, guitar sounds, drum sounds, synth sounds, whatever. Personally, I don't really care about any of that as long as the music is strong. My own, bias is, if I like the music, the music isn't cheesy, even if some of the sounds are. If I think the music itself is tired, it can be cheesy even if it was done yesterday with the most up to date gear and sounds available.

Actually, on reflection this is a very good definition.

I personally dont find much music cheesey, and I can listen to it even if it is cheesey.

So I tend to think of something as cheesey when I KNOW that if I played to the Mrs she'd laugh her arse off at me!

and yes moley - youre absolutely right, todays charts (soon to include the David Beckham of Jazz - Jamie Cullam) are complete sh*te, I mean cheese... simply because it is the same old same old... BUT that's very much because you're educated in music.
If I sat in front of the TV and guessed where the key change was due in the latest boyzone record my mates would think i'd heard it before.. know what i mean?

I'm listening it headhunters now and they have just used a slinky spring sound effect in here... that IS cheesey whether u dig or not!

 

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
I think you're missing my point. The issue isn't whether bands should switch to simpler basslines. I don't listen to any of the bands you mentioned, so you may be right about them for all I know. The issue is about how you create a musical experience. *Technical* simplicity and complexity have different musical uses, and they do NOT correlate directly with *musical or emotional* complexity. Frankly, I find a lot of highly technical music boring and superficial, and a lot of simpler music involving and profound. (And it's not because I don't understand highly technical stuff; I'm pretty well educated in that regard.) The opposite is true too IMO: highly technical music can be superb too, and very simple music tedious. It all depends on the individual music and performer.

To sum it up : Good music is always good music.

Its impossible to argue with that but I do think that LOTS of simple music would be better if got abit more advanced in some forms but you are of course free to disagree. I base this on my own experience with stuff I have heard that where alot better off that way and I think that this world seems pretty ignorant about the glories that advanced music hold.

 

[lamarjones]

Originally posted by Coypu

I base this on my own experience with stuff I have heard that where alot better off that way and I think that this world seems pretty ignorant about the glories that advanced music hold.

True, and as a counterpoint, too many advanced musicians find themselves presenting the most complex arrangements to the general puclic, and they wonder why people don't dig it? Well, as stated in Men In Black, 'a person is not stupid, but people as a whole are panicky and....'. Meaning the majority of people need something they can grasp to, and they don't want to take 'jazz appreciation' to do so.

So, is little bit of advanced arrangement is good, but if it is too much so, don't wonder why people can't follow it cause this is your warning ( or go to Europe, they seem to do much better with that stuff than over here).

 

[Howard K]

Eventhough I disagree that the simplest way is often the most effective

I find this amazing!!!

I mean how could you disagree with that? It's really bizarre how much tastes vary!

What would be interesting right now would be to hear some of each other music - do you have anything online I can hear?

bidgiereef is their previous player - I've simplified (and I'm confident enough to say, vastly improved) on what is in their latest demo - not sure what's on the site tho).

gaudi is some real simple stuff for ya.. but that's not me playing either!! suffice to say my lines rae pretty much the same, but played a bit better

 

[Howard K]

I think that this world seems pretty ignorant about the glories that advanced music hold.

Actually I agree with you here, although as hinted at above:

...this world seems pretty ignorant about the glories that advanced ANYTHING holds...!!!

Also, 'technical' has a tendancy to be associated with 'fast'. I'm not quite sure why cause I find grooving at 40pm a darn site harder than 140.

A question: do you like technical music because it's challenging to listen to, challenging to play, or???

>>>Aaah, I just checked your profile, you're in Sweden, suddenly everything became clear!!!

You know you're a stereotype don't you?

I dont say that as an insult I assure you... everyone's stereotype really
I'm nearly 30, in a crap office job and wishing I'd pushed for a career in music

Have you ever heard of Chris Tsangarides?

 

[moley]

Originally posted by Howard K
and yes moley - youre absolutely right, todays charts (soon to include the David Beckham of Jazz - Jamie Cullam) are complete sh*te, I mean cheese... simply because it is the same old same old... BUT that's very much because you're educated in music

Ah, Jamie Cullam, yeah I heard him on Parkinson. Singer & pianist, right?

He was a good pianist, and he seemed to have the idiom down pretty well - and he could sing (though I didn't care that much for his voice).

But, the thing is, it seemed to me to be very much "mind" music - rather than "soul" music, if you see what I mean? I mean, he was just reeling of the same old idiomatic spiel, complete with token-Louis Armstrong impression - nothing original, and genuine sounding.

 

[moley]

Originally posted by Coypu
Eventhough I disagree that the simplest way is often the most effective...

I agree with Howard on that one. I'll give you a big fat Huh? for that

As I'm listening to Joni at work today, I'll use Hejira as an example. Listen to Jaco's superb bass lines on the Hejira album (Joni Mitchell) - now, this is not complex stuff, certainly not by Jaco's standards. But it's beautiful. Do you really think that one of Jaco's 16th note chops workouts would work better on "Refuge Of The Roads" than the beautifully simple line he came up with for it?

 

[Howard K]

He was a good pianist, and he seemed to have the idiom down pretty well - and he could sing (though I didn't care that much for his voice).

But, the thing is, it seemed to me to be very much "mind" music - rather than "soul" music, if you see what I mean? I mean, he was just reeling of the same old idiomatic spiel, complete with token-Louis Armstrong impression - nothing original, and genuine sounding.

Well, I went to Goring jazz club (may parents live in goring) for the 1st time and he was playing - this was the week before he 'made it'.

He was crap. I left after the 1st set. He had a quality bassist and drummer, in that they were metronomic and nice players, but the sax player was aweful!! he did the tacky oldjazz scat call & response thing with the sax player, but the sax player didnt respond, he just played a load of scales. the whole point in that scenario is that you build on the lick between players surely?

So the DBOJ sings "skidlly-bat-badoo" etc and sax player just comes back with asomething totally unrelated... twas dreadful.

Piano- I'm not judge of piano, he sounded fair, but to be honest it just sounded like "the standard" stuff. his solo's were nothing.
the band did a cobver of light my fire... plus a bunch of cheesey louge style standards.
his voice, yeah he certainly can sing, but i dont like it either.

he, himself, just irritated me beyond belief. he's just a cheesey pop artist jumping on the norah jones bandwagon.

...and "The David Beckham of Jazz" he should be shot for that statement... at point blank range. Wanker.

 

[moley]

Originally posted by Howard K
Piano- I'm not judge of piano, he sounded fair, but to be honest it just sounded like "the standard" stuff.

Exactly. He just seems to be just taking off a style (one that's been done before, and better).

...and "The David Beckham of Jazz" he should be shot for that statement... at point blank range. Wanker.

*He* said that? LOL. In what way is he comparing himself to Beckham, then?

 

[Howard K]

*He* said that? LOL. In what way is he comparing himself to Beckham, then?

Yeah, straight up, read this article from BBC News!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2985983.stm

Cringe...

 

[Howard K]

nope it doesnt say it there,. maybe i misquoted.
whatever, he's a snugglemuffin, say no more.

 

[moley]

LOL. On Parkinson, he was touted as a songwriter, yet he was singing a standard - and it says in that article that he'll be doing covers of songs by Radiohead etc...

What gives?

 

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lamarjones
True, and as a counterpoint, too many advanced musicians find themselves presenting the most complex arrangements to the general puclic, and they wonder why people don't dig it? Well, as stated in Men In Black, 'a person is not stupid, but people as a whole are panicky and....'. Meaning the majority of people need something they can grasp to, and they don't want to take 'jazz appreciation' to do so.

So, is little bit of advanced arrangement is good, but if it is too much so, don't wonder why people can't follow it cause this is your warning ( or go to Europe, they seem to do much better with that stuff than over here).

I think that all musicians should completely disregard what other people when they create their music. Once they make their music easier just to become more accecible then they are on a very dangerous road and the instant that they compromise they loose their artistic integrity.

I live in Sweden (which is in Europe...) and I guess the situation over here is a little better but I doubt that its much.

 

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Howard K
I find this amazing!!!

I mean how could you disagree with that? It's really bizarre how much tastes vary!

What would be interesting right now would be to hear some of each other music - do you have anything online I can hear?

bidgiereef is their previous player - I've simplified (and I'm confident enough to say, vastly improved) on what is in their latest demo - not sure what's on the site tho).

gaudi is some real simple stuff for ya.. but that's not me playing either!! suffice to say my lines rae pretty much the same, but played a bit better

Here are some soundclips from some of my favorite bands :

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http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/DougTheFallOfReason.mp3

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http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/411/cynic1.html - Veil of maya

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/473/suffocation.html - Bloodchurn

Tell me what you think and I'll gladly listen to any soundclips that you bring out.

 

[ConU]

Originally posted by Coypu


I think that all musicians should completely disregard what other people when they create their music. Once they make their music easier just to become more accecible then they are on a very dangerous road and the instant that they compromise they loose their artistic integrity.

I disagree,you might as well live in a vacuum and never leave your basement then.
Regardless of the style,music is either some form of communication or entertainment,you have to keep the listener in mind.It' a question of balance.

 

[Coypu]

Originally posted by ConU
I disagree,you might as well live in a vacuum and never leave your basement then.
Regardless of the style,music is either some form of communication or entertainment,you have to keep the listener in mind.It' a question of balance.

Its this attitude that makes the world a bad place. If all musicians where sincere and created music for no other than themselves then we would have alot more good music out there. The really good bands out there are the one who created music to satisfy their own creative lusts and dreams, the bad stuff out there is the music that was created to satisfy others. There are endless amounts of examples of this.

 

[lamarjones]

Originally posted by ConU


I disagree,you might as well live in a vacuum and never leave your basement then.
Regardless of the style,music is either some form of communication or entertainment,you have to keep the listener in mind.It' a question of balance.

Agree with this statement (there are a lot of 'disagrees/agrees', starting to get confusing Not that you should totally give in to publicly accessible formats, but connecting with your audience is huge, unless you strictly play for yourself.

I had this band one time, and the guitarist would just go off and try to play every song differently everytime. Finally one time, the practice before a gig, I said 'Dude, can you just play the song like we planned it?'. He said, 'I don't know why we play, but I play to enjoy it for myself'. I quit after the next gig, and told him 'if you play only for your enjoyment, I don't want to be any part of it. I play to be part of a team, and as a team we make decisions. And we made the decision to be in a band to play for people. And if its about amusing yourself as a top priority, I do not wish to be part of your team, cause it is clear you wish to be a solo artist'.

To this day he has still not figured out how to organize himself to have something people can enjoy. Most likely he will die with people trying to understand him. Sad, but I don't have the time for it.

 

[lamarjones]

Originally posted by Coypu


Its this attitude that makes the world a bad place. If all musicians where sincere and created music for no other than themselves then we would have alot more good music out there. The really good bands out there are the one who created music to satisfy their own creative lusts and dreams, the bad stuff out there is the music that was created to satisfy others. There are endless amounts of examples of this.

I'd like to know these examples, and if they feel this is the way they came about it.