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Respect your elders

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#61
Originally posted by Howard K
Actually I agree with you here, although as hinted at above:

...this world seems pretty ignorant about the glories that advanced ANYTHING holds...!!!

Also, 'technical' has a tendancy to be associated with 'fast'. I'm not quite sure why cause I find grooving at 40pm a darn site harder than 140.

A question: do you like technical music because it's challenging to listen to, challenging to play, or???

>>>Aaah, I just checked your profile, you're in Sweden, suddenly everything became clear!!!

You know you're a stereotype don't you?

I dont say that as an insult I assure you... everyone's stereotype really :)
I'm nearly 30, in a crap office job and wishing I'd pushed for a career in music :rolleyes:

Have you ever heard of Chris Tsangarides?
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Personally I find it much harder to play something at 140bpm rather than 40 but I guess it all depends on what it is you are playing. Slow can be hard eventhough it is rare.

I like (some) technical music because it evokes emotion in me in a way that no other music can. Not sure why but this is how it is. I would never listen to tehcnical music for the sake of technicality alone, I can't stand yngvie malmsten for example, I much rather listen to bands that have other sides like Cynic who are technical but still have very soulfull music,

I'm not really sure how I am a steroetype but I never really worried much about thoose issues anyways.

No, never heard of him. I will listen to him if you show me some soundclips.
 
#62
Originally posted by Coypu


Its this attitude that makes the world a bad place. If all musicians where sincere and created music for no other than themselves then we would have alot more good music out there. The really good bands out there are the one who created music to satisfy their own creative lusts and dreams, the bad stuff out there is the music that was created to satisfy others. There are endless amounts of examples of this.
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Striking a balance between artistic expression and commercial viability negates good music?That's ridiculous.An extraordinary amount of music exists in every style,from the last 500 years or so,that has that balance.Because it's popular does'nt necessarily mean it's "bad stuff".
 
#63
I don't agree. I think you have an overly romantic view of the artist. I can't think of a single musician worth a damn who EVER created music *solely* for themselves. Not Bach, not Beethoven, not Charlie Parker, not John Lennon, not Astor Piazzolla, not anybody. Music is meaningless if it's not heard and somehow related to. Just as a novel is meaningless if it's never read, and I guarantee you every author wants to be read.
 
#64
Originally posted by lamarjones
I'd like to know these examples, and if they feel this is the way they came about it.
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Examples of people who stayed true to themselves :

Cynic
Ron Jarzombek (Spastic Ink, Watchtower, SSOTC ...)
Scheonberg
Glenn Gould

Examples of people who didn't :

Metallica
Britney Spears
Buddah of bass, or whatever his name is.
Stu Hamm
Steve Vai

I added a good variation of people there that all have at some point compromised their musical integrity and as you can see the list above contains much higher quality music. If you can find a band or person who sold his soul but still creates amazing music then go ahead.
 
#65
Originally posted by lamarjones
Agree with this statement (there are a lot of 'disagrees/agrees', starting to get confusing ;) Not that you should totally give in to publicly accessible formats, but connecting with your audience is huge, unless you strictly play for yourself.

I had this band one time, and the guitarist would just go off and try to play every song differently everytime. Finally one time, the practice before a gig, I said 'Dude, can you just play the song like we planned it?'. He said, 'I don't know why we play, but I play to enjoy it for myself'. I quit after the next gig, and told him 'if you play only for your enjoyment, I don't want to be any part of it. I play to be part of a team, and as a team we make decisions. And we made the decision to be in a band to play for people. And if its about amusing yourself as a top priority, I do not wish to be part of your team, cause it is clear you wish to be a solo artist'.

To this day he has still not figured out how to organize himself to have something people can enjoy. Most likely he will die with people trying to understand him. Sad, but I don't have the time for it.
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You just gave a good description of Allan Holdsworth... Surely Allan will die while people still have no idea of how great he was but in my view that doesn't make him bad at all. In fact he is one of the greatest guitarplayers and visionaires of all time. I wish your guitarplayer good luck.
 
#66
Originally posted by Coypu


Examples of people who stayed true to themselves :

Cynic
Ron Jarzombek (Spastic Ink, Watchtower, SSOTC ...)
Scheonberg
Glenn Gould

Examples of people who didn't :

Metallica
Britney Spears
Buddah of bass, or whatever his name is.
Stu Hamm
Steve Vai

I added a good variation of people there that all have at some point compromised their musical integrity and as you can see the list above contains much higher quality music. If you can find a band or person who sold his soul but still creates amazing music then go ahead.
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How on earth do you presume to know who has compromised their musical integrity and who hasn't? Are you a mind-reader? What qualifies you to talk about any of these people's motives? Come on, you must know this is preposterous. And besides, I'm convinced that Britney Spears is being true to her own vision. That may be the scariest thing of all.:hmm:
 
#67
Originally posted by ConU
Striking a balance between artistic expression and commercial viability negates good music?That's ridiculous.An extraordinary amount of music exists in every style,from the last 500 years or so,that has that balance.Because it's popular does'nt necessarily mean it's "bad stuff".
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Give me some examples of someone who sucessfully managed to hold the balance.
 
#68
Originally posted by Richard Lindsey


How on earth do you presume to know who has compromised their musical integrity and who hasn't? Are you a mind-reader? What qualifies you to talk about any of these people's motives? Come on, you must know this is preposterous. And besides, I'm convinced that Britney Spears is being true to her own vision. That may be the scariest thing of all.:hmm:
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Once again, I agree.

How do you know all the artists you speak of never had to keep in mind the arrangements they came up with? Holdsworth most definitely seems to be conscious of his playing and arrangements, which is aimed at the jazz community admittedly.
 
#69
Originally posted by Coypu


You just gave a good description of Allan Holdsworth... Surely Allan will die while people still have no idea of how great he was but in my view that doesn't make him bad at all. In fact he is one of the greatest guitarplayers and visionaires of all time. I wish your guitarplayer good luck.
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Oh rubbish. I seriously doubt that Holdsworth plays just to "enjoy himself". He could stay home and play at the local burger joint if he wanted to do that. He is playing to try to communicate something. He wants to say something to somebody, and he wants to be heard. Communication means nothing if no one hears you.
 
#71
Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
I don't agree. I think you have an overly romantic view of the artist. I can't think of a single musician worth a damn who EVER created music *solely* for themselves. Not Bach, not Beethoven, not Charlie Parker, not John Lennon, not Astor Piazzolla, not anybody. Music is meaningless if it's not heard and somehow related to. Just as a novel is meaningless if it's never read, and I guarantee you every author wants to be read.
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Well I guess its time for you to dig into the artists who actually had no intention of making their music user friendly but only to create what they desired.

Gorguts - Obscura, hated by many, loved by few. Very experimental and a true masterpeice with total disrespect for their old fans.

Pestilence - Spheres, same as above but even more hated.

Cynic - The spiritual ideas of Paul Masvidal put into music, loved by few and the most unique and amazing album in death metal.

Spastic Ink - Another puritan, just listen to his music and you'll understand...

Glenn Gould - This guy had a mind of his own, he was as pure as you can get. He often isolated himself and at an early age quit playing concerts regarding them "as a blood sport for the masses". He didn't compromise his integrity once and if you deny his greatness then I must say that I will have a hard time to regard you highly.

Now you have some examples, there is more and I hope you embrace all this.
 
#73
Originally posted by Coypu


Give me some examples of someone who sucessfully managed to hold the balance.
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Wait, I think we need to back up.

Are you equating understanding and planning the arrangement of a song with the notion of selling out?

"I think that all musicians should completely disregard what other people when they create their music. Once they make their music easier just to become more accecible then they are on a very dangerous road and the instant that they compromise they loose their artistic integrity. "

Cause everyone you mentioned states an 'influence', meaning they most certainly did not
'disregard what other people do when they create their music'.
 
#74
Originally posted by lamarjones
Once again, I agree.

How do you know all the artists you speak of never had to keep in mind the arrangements they came up with? Holdsworth most definitely seems to be conscious of his playing and arrangements, which is aimed at the jazz community admittedly.
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Holdsworth definately walked his own path, his music is unique and very few jazz fans regards his music high. Most jazz fans doesn't even consider him to be either jazz or even fusion. He even has his own label to be able to create the music he wants without being controlled by a record company. If you are telling me that Holdsworth music is music created to please alot of people then you have some strange ideas.
 
#75
Originally posted by Coypu





Glenn Gould - This guy had a mind of his own, he was as pure as you can get. He often isolated himself and at an early age quit playing concerts regarding them "as a blood sport for the masses". He didn't compromise his integrity once and if you deny his greatness then I must say that I will have a hard time to regard you highly.
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You think he did the Beethoven Piano Concertos because he did'nt want to be heard,or for people to enjoy them?
 
#76
Originally posted by Coypu


Holdsworth definately walked his own path, his music is unique and very few jazz fans regards his music high. Most jazz fans doesn't even consider him to be either jazz or even fusion. He even has his own label to be able to create the music he wants without being controlled by a record company. If you are telling me that Holdsworth music is music created to please alot of people then you have some strange ideas.
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As stated in the post above this, I think we got off on what is actuall in question.
 
#77
Originally posted by Coypu


Well I guess its time for you to dig into the artists who actually had no intention of making their music user friendly but only to create what they desired.

Gorguts - Obscura, hated by many, loved by few. Very experimental and a true masterpeice with total disrespect for their old fans.

Pestilence - Spheres, same as above but even more hated.

Cynic - The spiritual ideas of Paul Masvidal put into music, loved by few and the most unique and amazing album in death metal.

Spastic Ink - Another puritan, just listen to his music and you'll understand...

Glenn Gould - This guy had a mind of his own, he was as pure as you can get. He often isolated himself and at an early age quit playing concerts regarding them "as a blood sport for the masses". He didn't compromise his integrity once and if you deny his greatness then I must say that I will have a hard time to regard you highly.

Now you have some examples, there is more and I hope you embrace all this.
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Sorry, I simply don't believe your claim that all of these artists made music only for themselves. if they had, they would never have recorded. We're not talking about user-friendliness, we're talking about communication.

I can't speak for the first four artists. Yes, Glenn Gould was great; so what? So was Arthur Rubinstein. Who was quite successful commercially, by the way. Some would call Rubinstein the greater of the two pianists.
 
#78
Originally posted by Richard Lindsey
Stevie Wonder
Miles Davis
Segovia
Alicia de Larrocha
Antonio Carlos Jobim
Milton Nascimento
Puccini, Verdi
Oum Koulsoum
The Beatles
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Mozart

And that's without trying hard at all.
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"The problem with Mozart was not that he died to early but to late" - Glenn Gould

Since I like a total of 0 of thoose mentioned all I can say is that we seem to share completely different view on music and while I could mention plenty of weak songs by say Miles Davis don't think that is necessary since you would disagree by default.
 
#79
lol, Coypu, you always go on about Glenn Gould, don't you? :D

However great he was (and I don't know, I can't say I'm familiar with his playing) - any greatness he had was entirely compromised by his incessant habit of audibly singing along with himself!! :D (j/k with ya)

And, your remark about it being easier to play at 140 than 40, well - I disagree. To play a real slow ballad, yet maintain the energy and interest, is much harder than it seems. In the Big Band I used to play (piano) with, we did a couple of very slow ballads, for example Count Basie's "Lil Darling". And to play it slow, yet maintain the energy, *without* dragging, and getting it tight, is a lot harder than it might seem.
 
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