Rhythm guit.....

[jeffbrown]

The rhythm guitar/backup signer/co-writer in my band doesn't practice. He pretty much knows all the songs, but every rehearsal he plays stuff just a little differently *every time*, i.e., subbing chords from the 1 to the 3, the 2 to the 4, etc. Now, we do originals, and one could say that variation might make things interesting (heck, some of the tunes we play NEVER sound the same from day to day, but the structure remains the same), but when the tune is written (sometimes by HIM, lol) and he changes stuff up on the fly because he's hearing a different thing in his head, what's a bass player to do? We have recorded practice CDs, and we all have them, but RG will go off into somewhere and it often doesn't sound good.

He is the least accomplished musician in the band, but he has a great voice, and has written some really nice tunes. I've known him for decades, and he's the one who invited me into the band when the last bassist flaked out. I love the dude, but I'm at the point where I'm watching his left hand to see where he's going next. The lead is on to this; the drummer is oblivious, haha, and I'm thinking it is going to be time for a sit-down soon. Help!

 

[Downunderwonder]

I hate playing with buskers too.

Can he change?
Will he change?

Either you get him to play the tunes as written or you leave.

 

[craigie]

I hear your frustration. I went back to jam with some old buddies in a different town and they had this brit Tony there. I'm following along songs I don't know by ear and he's changing the chords between verses. He had the nerve so say "get on key" to me. Between that and his overpowering shrill guitar stomping on things I was ready to kill

IMO bass sets the chord and guitar sounds "wrong" a lot of times not the other way around. So if you're playing strong and always the same way he won't follow you? Does he recognize the disconnect? Sounds like a one way conversation with his inner ear.

 

[pcake]

fire the dru.... oh, wait a minute.

OP, i assume you've told all that you posted here to the guy already?

 

[jeffbrown]

Haha - busker... LOL

I think he can change. We'll need to be gentle, though. I know he understands the need to be consistent. This situation has only popped up in the last month or two. He's very enthusiastic, and I believe he gets carried away and goes crazy while playing.

Yes, I guess I'm going to have to talk to him about what he's doing, and help him understand that his chording isn't jibing with my part, and see if we can get it together - hopefully returning to the original, or if it comes to it, re-writing but keeping it consistent. Then we'll include the lead.

And thanks, pcake, we're all friends. There will be no hard feelings, and we are in it to make the best music we're capable of.

 

[jeffbrown]

I hear your frustration. I went back to jam with some old buddies in a different town and they had this brit Tony there. I'm following along songs I don't know by ear and he's changing the chords between verses. He had the nerve so say "get on key" to me. Between that and his overpowering shrill guitar stomping on things I was ready to kill

IMO bass sets the chord and guitar sounds "wrong" a lot of times not the other way around. So if you're playing strong and always the same way he won't follow you? Does he recognize the disconnect? Sounds like a one way conversation with his inner ear.

Once he gets going, I think he tunes out a lot of what's going on around him. He gets carried away in the (his) moment. Like I said, he's enthusiastic. Since I've known him forever, I'm pretty sure I can get him to calm down and listen/pay attention. We are looking to play out again soon, and he knows we'll need to sound good.

 

[craigie]

Once he gets going, I think he tunes out a lot of what's going on around him. He gets carried away in the (his) moment. Like I said, he's enthusiastic. Since I've known him forever, I'm pretty sure I can get him to calm down and listen/pay attention. We are looking to play out again soon, and he knows we'll need to sound good.

I just reread your post. "Doesn't practice " and "pretty much knows all the songs" lol. I'm in a cover band and know all the 60+ songs so well we don't need to rehearse and could change keys of any of them because I practiced until I had them. How con he not know your own songs???

 

[Stumbo]

Seems to me there could be a memory problem since this just started in the past couple of months.

Discuss it with him like the good friends you are. See what he thinks could be the issue.

Did he used to practice? If not and he used to play consistently, what's changed?

 

[Ox Boris]

When he strays, stop and say, "Hang on, what are you playing there? [wait for answer] G-D-C? Righto...just a sec, I'll write it down." Then write it with a big marker pen on a sheet of A4 in front of you. When he strays again, stop and say, "Hang on, isn't it G-D-C there? Let me have a look at my sheet. Yeah, here it is, G-D-C. It's G-D-C, everybody, ok? Ok, from the top, 1,2,3,4..."
Repeat as necessary.

Basically, use his own words (chords) to nail him down.

 

[charlie monroe]

Don't do this:

When he strays, stop and say, "Hang on, what are you playing there? [wait for answer] G-D-C? Righto...just a sec, I'll write it down." Then write it with a big marker pen on a sheet of A4 in front of you. When he strays again, stop and say, "Hang on, isn't it G-D-C there? Let me have a look at my sheet. Yeah, here it is, G-D-C. It's G-D-C, everybody, ok? Ok, from the top, 1,2,3,4..."
Repeat as necessary.

Basically, use his own words (chords) to nail him down.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Can he change?
Will he change?

Either you get him to play the tunes as written or you leave.

One more option - or you get used to it.

I'd communicate as nicely and clearly as possible, and if he doesn't make an immediate effort to change, then just decide whether you want to stay or go. It's tough to change others, but every now and then we come across someone who really wants to make things better, and is entirely willing. Those people, IME, will hear you, and immediately make the effort. Those that don't, aren't changing.

I had a similar situation with a drummer, wound up getting thrown out of the band because the BL saw it as MY problem, and then got a call 2 years later from the BL apologizing for not seeing things for what they were. Two bass players after me had the same issue, and quit. It was one of the most frustrating musical situations I was ever in, because the music was real rhythmically centered and the drummer had some really good chops. He was just crazy, and would change things completely every time we played. I was coming up with some intricate bass lines (that I really liked, too) and would have to immediately abandon them the following rehearsal. At that time I didn't have the skills nor the desire to deal with it, and wound up just fighting with the guy. If I were in that situation today and really wanted the gig (I didn't) I'd keep my parts simple, and make it an improv kind of thing. I actually think I'd enjoy that situation if in it now, but I was a way different person and player back then.

 

[Ox Boris]

Don't do this:

Ha! Well, perhaps give him a few runs at the first part, so he's in no doubt that he's changing it.

Of course, the solution that's needed is one where he can still have that freedom and the Bass knows where to go, or at least won't clash. Got me buggered, how.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Don't do this:

Agreed. Being called out seems to be causing the issue in the first place. Doing so in writing with the intent of "nailing him down" with his own words seems short-sighted.

Yes, I guess I'm going to have to talk to him about what he's doing, and help him understand that his chording isn't jibing with my part, and see if we can get it together - hopefully returning to the original, or if it comes to it, re-writing but keeping it consistent. Then we'll include the lead.

Sounds like the OP has the more reasonable solution, especially if he's trying to maintain a friendship. Good luck.

 

[BassJuju]

I hate playing with buskers too.

Ha! I never had a term for it, but yes, I totally agree.

 

[morgan138]

subbing chords from the 1 to the 3, the 2 to the 4, etc.

These kind of just sound like...mistakes. Is he doing something vocally or melodically that makes those changed chords work, or just dropping them in?

Because as frustrating as it is, if he's able to adjust everything he's doing on the fly it might be worth just teaching yourself to follow him instead of trying to alter his (weirdly functional) way of playing. Think of it as "embracing something that could make your band stand out" instead of "fixing a broken guitarist." I've seen bands (honestly, solo performers with backing band) who could do this and it was pretty cool sometimes.

On the other hand, if he's just slipping up and playing the wrong chords do what OxBoris suggested, but with all the passive-aggressiveness taken out. Like: these are good songs that we all like playing, so let's figure out what chords work best and use those! Don't frame it as "but my bass part!" though, "what is best for the song?" will probably be a lot more convincing.

And at the end of the day, if he's not able to sell those "substitutions" but also can't/won't stop doing them...I dunno, maybe see if he wants to get a full-time guitar player and just sing?

 

[roller]

I'M RIGHT HERE, MAN! I CAN READ WHAT YOU GUYS ARE WRITING ABOUT ME!!!!!

 

[swafran]

fire the dru.... oh, wait a minute.

 

[socialleper]

The rhythm guitar/backup signer/co-writer in my band doesn't practice. He pretty much knows all the songs, but every rehearsal he plays stuff just a little differently *every time*, i.e., subbing chords from the 1 to the 3, the 2 to the 4, etc. Now, we do originals, and one could say that variation might make things interesting (heck, some of the tunes we play NEVER sound the same from day to day, but the structure remains the same), but when the tune is written (sometimes by HIM, lol) and he changes stuff up on the fly because he's hearing a different thing in his head, what's a bass player to do? We have recorded practice CDs, and we all have them, but RG will go off into somewhere and it often doesn't sound good.

He is the least accomplished musician in the band, but he has a great voice, and has written some really nice tunes. I've known him for decades, and he's the one who invited me into the band when the last bassist flaked out. I love the dude, but I'm at the point where I'm watching his left hand to see where he's going next. The lead is on to this; the drummer is oblivious, haha, and I'm thinking it is going to be time for a sit-down soon. Help!

You're doing it wrong.
The song is written, you play it with the drummer as written, and the guitar player has to play to you. Don't chase them. You and the drummer set the time and direction of them music. Period.
My band has two guitar players, and the newest of the two is little like that. He constantly noodles and experiments with stuff. He was still "writing" his solos when we went into the studio to record even though we have been practicing the songs for months. It is annoying, but the other guitarist that writes 80% of the material and I have made sure he knows what time it is. "This is how the song goes. These are the scales, these are the riffs." If he monkeys around within those confines, we have to trust him enough as a musician to be confident that he will do what is right for the song. I know I have changed things over time. I don't ask for anyone's permission to play something. I can't really demand that of someone else.

 

[csc2048b]

The rhythm guitar/backup signer/co-writer in my band doesn't practice. He pretty much knows all the songs, but every rehearsal he plays stuff just a little differently *every time*... what's a bass player to do? We have recorded practice CDs, and we all have them, but RG will go off into somewhere and it often doesn't sound good.

stick to what you play on the cd and he'll look like the fool.

He is the least accomplished musician in the band, but he has a great voice, and has written some really nice tunes. I've known him for decades, and he's the one who invited me into the band when the last bassist flaked out. I love the dude,

find a way to lower his amp volume when he's not looking.

but I'm at the point where I'm watching his left hand to see where he's going next. The lead is on to this; the drummer is oblivious, haha, and I'm thinking it is going to be time for a sit-down soon. Help!

wait for someone else to bring it up (so you're not the bad guy) stop watching his hands - that will only mess you up.

 

[Steadfast]

I actually run into this situation every Sunday morning.

The worship leader is a wonderful singer and a very good rhythm guitarist. However--she sends out the chords on Wednesday.... I memorize the progressions knowing she will change the keys multiple times at Sunday's early morning rehearsal. BUT--she will always play different chords or progressions than the ones she sent on Wednesday.

Now--I do nail her down because the pianist is bamboozled too--and we have one hour to get 4 songs right.

Generally--I gently tell her she what progression she needs to play because that is what she sent on Wednesday.

She expects it from me and accepts it well. Perhaps she accepts well because she worked with me before as a sax player? Maybe.

In my personal band I fire all the damned guitarists and do the Royal Blood thing. "eff them all for sucking. lololololol