Roasted/torrefied is misunderstood by industry

[FRoss6788]

 

[fretlessman71]

Roasted and Thermally aged is just marketing speak. There are many varieties of thermal treatment. What the marketing department calls thermal treatment does not connote a difference between the two.

I will defer to your knowledge. All I know is that I have yet to play a roasted maple neck bass that didn't sound like it was missing something important in the tone.

 

[Grinderman]

Influencer marketing is a trip.

 

[FRoss6788]

I will defer to your knowledge. All I know is that I have yet to play a roasted maple neck bass that didn't sound like it was missing something important in the tone.

Such as...?

 

[fretlessman71]

Such as...?

A big dip in the 1.5k-2k range that I miss.

 

[Inkadibass]

View attachment 5210718

You can start by reading 35 pages

Thermally Aged Tonewood by Pertti Nieminen and Rauno Nieminen
(English translation by Juha Ruokangas)

I think you will find it if you search on the name Rauno Nieminen

 

[MPU]

Certainly because your anecdotal evidence trumps all real data.... I read the article at least a portion of the graphs don't actually show what they purport to. The flexural strength graph is misleading. It looks like the SEM images are misleading and taken in backscatter imaging mode and I'm not exactly sure why or even what they show.

Oh and by the way, brittle is not better. An increase in stiffness could be better. I believe that there is evidence out there and the basics of what we know about thermal treatment suggests that it is promising. But this paper while a step in the right direction is more marketing speech.

You can read papers and articles about materials OR you can use the material yourself and listen to those who know about luthiery and use the material.

 

[FRoss6788]

A big dip in the 1.5k-2k range that I miss.

Weird.

I have a Fender roasted P neck and love it. Plays and sounds like a super comfy maple neck.

 

[icefly]

 

[gln1955]

You can start by reading 35 pages

Thermally Aged Tonewood by Pertti Nieminen and Rauno Nieminen
(English translation by Juha Ruokangas)

I think you will find it if you search on the name Rauno Nieminen

For anyone who wants to actually see the reference...

http://raunonieminen.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/SP-n-vanhe.ENGL_.-11.6.2020-x2.pdf

The history part is interesting. The data part (which totally lacks any statistical treatment, by the way) doesn't provide a scrap of evidence that the "Finnish" method is any better than the typical roasting. Disappointing also, that there is nothing about throwing your wood in a fire.

 

[Auspuff]

Musicians interested in roasted wood for bass or guitar should instead look for
Thermally Aged Tonewood, rather than looking for Roasted
Roasted is overdoing it
As I remember it, Thermally Aged Tonewood has strengthen its cell walls
The Roasted ones have lost strength in some degree, and is very brown

In Finland they learned how to do it, and looks like industry in U.S.A. caught the
Idea of it, but with less finesse, and ended up with Caramelizes & Roasted, Torrefied wood
Maybe it was their way of trying to come up with their own recipe of Thermally Aged
With a Look of its own?

Try to do a search on Thermally Aged Tonewood, if you find something from Finland you are on the track
Serious stuff with professional studies has bin don in Finland

Ruokangas Guitars Juha has written intersting stuff

Also Stenback have had succes with Thermally Aged woods, witch he has done in a very special way
Kind of taking it to a hole new new level

If it does not add to the playability, I am not interested.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

I'd like the sampler please;
Carmelized maple,
Torrified ebony;
Roasted ash
And I'll take a glass of your best Finnish Thermally Aged Tonewood, neat.

 

[Inkadibass]

For anyone who wants to actually see the reference...

http://raunonieminen.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/SP-n-vanhe.ENGL_.-11.6.2020-x2.pdf

The history part is interesting. The data part (which totally lacks any statistical treatment, by the way) doesn't provide a scrap of evidence that the "Finnish" method is any better than the typical roasting. Disappointing also, that there is nothing about throwing your wood in a fire.

I guess setting the wood "on fire" is a Jimmy Hendrix & Tom Stenback thing, additive to all ready T.A.W.

 

[Grinderman]

Cute advertising copy.

"What is the difference?
A lot of people keep asking me what is the difference between the commercially available, more dramatic (caramelized – torrefied – baked – roasted) treatment and the milder ageing process we use.

Well, the main difference is this: When the wood is "overcooked", the changes that occur are something else than what natural ageing does. The color changes a lot – the cells partially break – the sound velocity decreases – the wood becomes fragile and difficult to work with. The stability of "overdone" wood is excellent, but nobody really knows how such wood will mature in time, hence the fragility and partially broken cellular structure."
​

Why would you go for the pasta al dente at Luigi's place next door? It's overcooked, fuggedaboutit!

 

[DaveParker39]

This is starting to feel like the "talk" section of a Wikipedia page that was written by the person the article is about.

 

[Inkadibass]

This is starting to feel like the "talk" section of a Wikipedia page that was written by the person the article is about.

Just to remind
This thread is about
Weak or broken down cell walls from Caramelized or Torrefied wood VS Strong and hard cell walls from
Thermally Aged woods

 

[silky smoove]

Weak or broken down cell walls from Caramelized or Torrefied wood VS Strong and hard cell walls from
Thermally Aged woods

To which there has been no scientific or statistically significant research to support in either direction presented in this thread. Until such time that there is, we're reliant on anecdotal evidence and opinions that are both educated and non-educated.

 

[Grinderman]

Just to remind
This thread is about
Weak or broken down cell walls from Caramelized or Torrefied wood VS Strong and hard cell walls from
Thermally Aged woods

How much can Strong and Hard cell walls lift?

 

[FRoss6788]

How much can Strong and Hard cell walls lift?

 

[micguy]

Roasted wood is more brittle than thermally aged.

Roasted, Thermally aged, and Torrified are terms referring to the same general process - one isn't different than the others. For any given desired outcome, you vary the parameters of the treatment. If you do it right, you make a nice stable neck for a musical instrument. Tweak the parameters a bit, and you can get all the way to charcoal if you want.

A lot of people think this process is new. Well, it isn't. The Vikings (not the football team, the guys who rowed longboats around Northern Europe raiding places (doing things that would be considered insensitive nowadays) used the process to make the wood on their longboats more immune to environmental issues, and that was something like 1300 years ago.