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Roasted/torrefied is misunderstood by industry

#41
Max Bogosity said:
Guitar Player once did an interview with a guy who had a similar theory about the effects of tobacco smoke. He was suspending guitars over dozens of lit cigarettes to quickly coat them in decades worth of nicotine.
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Yeah, but did they figure out how to scale their process?

Large-Scale-Commercial-Smoker.jpg
 
#43
MultiScaleMale said:
Okay, America sucks, Finland rules!!
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BishopJP said:
So, what is the actual debate, here?

Is it whether or not "thermally modifying" wood has merit in stringed instruments? Or is the discussion about who makes the best "thermally modified" lumber?

I love that this topic is being discussed but I don't love that it's starting to sound like the tone wood debate.
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Its about Roasted were the cell walls in the wood has weaken/lost strength vs Thermally Aged were the
Cell walls has harden up (MPU describes it very well with shaving vs saw dust)
 
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#46
Inkadibass said:
Try to do a search on Thermally Aged Tonewood, if you find something from Finland you are on the track
Serious stuff with professional studies has been done in Finland
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I did that search and found nothing that didn't look like thinly veiled advertising. But I'm very interested, so please post some peer-reviewed actual scientific research if that exists. ;)
 
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#47
Inkadibass said:
No need to be science behind it, if it works every time(If I remember correct he accidentally toasted a bass or 2)
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No, only if you want people to take you seriously. There is too much snake oil in the musical instrument world already. If it does something good to the instrument, and you think other people should do it, then you ought to be able to say what it does and why. Stenback can burn instruments all he wants and it builds mystique around his instruments, but he's got a strong business interest in that mystique and that doesn't show anyone that there's a musical or practical reason to do so. His customers are free to buy in to that mystique and enjoy it.

Fads for magic elements come and go with regularity (power cables, anyone?), those that have a demonstrable benefit and/or aesthetic appeal tend to be the the ones that stick around.
 
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#50
MPU said:
I don't have statistic but I've used both. Thermally aged maple (like what Ruokangas uses) is exactly like it says, like very old and dried maple. Planes and sands just like maple. Colour change is very slight, just like the smoke smell. Roasted maple smells like it's taken from bonfire, is pretty brown and, most important, is way, way more brittle. When planed, I got no shavings, just sawdust. You can read what Ruokangas and other Finnish luthiers say about their thermal treatment and compare that what's sold as roasted wood.
https://ruokangas.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Thermally-Aged-Tonewood-2020.pdf
Then I hope you use both thermally aged and roasted wood and tell how you feel they differ. I have no interest in arguing about the differences unless you have worked with both. No use IMO.
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Certainly because your anecdotal evidence trumps all real data.... :bored: I read the article at least a portion of the graphs don't actually show what they purport to. The flexural strength graph is misleading. It looks like the SEM images are misleading and taken in backscatter imaging mode and I'm not exactly sure why or even what they show.

Oh and by the way, brittle is not better. An increase in stiffness could be better. I believe that there is evidence out there and the basics of what we know about thermal treatment suggests that it is promising. But this paper while a step in the right direction is more marketing speech.
 
#52
jTrolt said:
Not to rain on the parade, but isn't this another "much ado about nothing" type of trend?

Point being, this is a deep level of research, anecdote and opinion, but again, can anyone really establish clear points as to what difference all of this makes? Better tone? Highly subjective. More stable necks? Hmm...
I distinctly recall a recent series of reviews of imported EBMM's with roasted necks that appeared to be put through the process incorrectly. Factory set up truss rods maxed out just to get instruments to pass, place into packages and ship, so there's some anecdotal evidence that it can do more harm than good.
Moreover,
Years ago, a Bass Player mag article revealed a group of people placing body blanks on a vibrating platform for a crazy amount of time just vibrating. Theory had it, that magic tone of vintage instruments could be attributed to the fact that they'd been played so much, the wood fibers had settled in and firmed up over all the years of reproducing string vibrations, so they could now build new instruments and charge accordingly for that "magic tone of yesteryear"

Sorry, but this looks like another such journey into micromanaging wood fibers that most players really cannot discern any real difference in the instrument's tonality or stability.
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"Roasting" imparts changes that can be measured and quantified. The vibration treatment is basically voodoo. I bought one of the sonic transducer things and the best thing I can say of it is that it helps new strings settle in more quickly.

A properly "roasted" neck or body will be stronger, lighter, have increased stability and resistant to changes due to humidity. The color changes vary based on sugar content of the wood, but the end result is beautiful. Almost like a 40 year old vintage neck from a day or two in the kiln process. There are downsides. Martin experimented with it for some tops and they cracked too easily, so don't use roasted for all purposes. You also need to be more careful with drilling and shaping. Use the correct pilot holes when screwing into it and it will wear down your CNC bits faster.
 
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#54
Inkadibass said:
Musicians interested in roasted wood for bass or guitar should instead look for
Thermally Aged Tonewood, rather than looking for Roasted
Roasted is overdoing it
As I remember it, Thermally Aged Tonewood has strengthen its cell walls
The Roasted ones have lost strength in some degree, and is very brown

In Finland they learned how to do it, and looks like industry in U.S.A. caught the
Idea of it, but with less finesse, and ended up with Caramelizes & Roasted, Torrefied wood
Maybe it was their way of trying to come up with their own recipe of Thermally Aged
With a Look of its own?

Try to do a search on Thermally Aged Tonewood, if you find something from Finland you are on the track
Serious stuff with professional studies has bin don in Finland

Ruokangas Guitars Juha has written intersting stuff

Also Stenback have had succes with Thermally Aged woods, witch he has done in a very special way
Kind of taking it to a hole new new level
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THANK YOU for saying this. I have always felt that while roasted maple looks kind of cool, the sound of the instruments I've played leaves something to be desired, almost as if the "edge" of the note was taken away before it even got a chance to be played. Lots of people lose their minds over roasted maple, and I just don't get it. (It DOES kinda sound delicious though.)
 
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#55
Fun Size Nick said:
No, only if you want people to take you seriously. There is too much snake oil in the musical instrument world already. If it does something good to the instrument, and you think other people should do it, then you ought to be able to say what it does and why. Stenback can burn instruments all he wants and it builds mystique around his instruments, but he's got a strong business interest in that mystique and that doesn't show anyone that there's a musical or practical reason to do so. His customers are free to buy in to that mystique and enjoy it.

Fads for magic elements come and go with regularity (power cables, anyone?), those that have a demonstrable benefit and/or aesthetic appeal tend to be the the ones that stick around.
Click to expand...
MultiScaleMale said:
"Roasting" imparts changes that can be measured and quantified. The vibration treatment is basically voodoo. I bought one of the sonic transducer things and the best thing I can say of it is that it helps new strings settle in more quickly.

A properly "roasted" neck or body will be stronger, lighter, have increased stability and resistant to changes due to humidity. The color changes vary based on sugar content of the wood, but the end result is beautiful. Almost like a 40 year old vintage neck from a day or two in the kiln process. There are downsides. Martin experimented with it for some tops and they cracked too easily, so don't use roasted for all purposes. You also need to be more careful with drilling and shaping. Use the correct pilot holes when screwing into it and it will wear down your CNC bits faster.
Click to expand...
If I remember correctly the Finland way of doing it take a lot more than 2 days
 
#56
fretlessman71 said:
THANK YOU for saying this. I have always felt that while roasted maple looks kind of cool, the sound of the instruments I've played leaves something to be desired, almost as if the "edge" of the note was taken away before it even got a chance to be played. Lots of people lose their minds over roasted maple, and I just don't get it. (It DOES kinda sound delicious though.)
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Roasted and Thermally aged is just marketing speak. There are many varieties of thermal treatment. What the marketing department calls thermal treatment does not connote a difference between the two.
 
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