Roasted/torrefied is misunderstood by industry

[Inkadibass]

Steinbeck is unique for sure…'tuning' the body with little weights in the control cavity etc. He's built a mystique around the brand with prices to match, so if he wants to set the basses on fire as part of the construction process, I am sure his customers appreciate it. It doesn't necessarily mean there's science behind it or something to emulate, but it certainly elevates the brand.

No need to be science behind it, if it works every time(If I remember correct he accidentally toasted a bass or 2)

 

[Inkadibass]

Here are the main commercial processes used today, if you're interested:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Looks like big industry, not useable for instruments

 

[logdrum]

Are we overpaying for Stingray Specials that may just crumble or snap in 10 years?

 

[JRA]

Reading that back, I probably should have had my morning coffee first.

i'm still on the drip myself!

so, is "roasted"/torrefied/thermally-treated wood better for necks than the presumably plain-old-dried/aged wood that most of us play? is it a fad --- market angle? TIA

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Looks like big industry, not useable for instruments

I guess necks are torrefied one at a time? No, you don't make a neck and then roast the neck. You make the neck out of already roasted lumber.

 

[FRoss6788]

Looks like big industry, not useable for instruments

Why would it not be usable for instruments?

 

[Inkadibass]

Why would it not be usable for instruments?

One of the big companies that article referred to were using fresh wood, wen they do Thermally Aged instrument wood in Finland, they use the best wood that all ready has bin natural dried
( I guess somebody will use it but not any Luthiers from Finland)

 

[MultiScaleMale]

One of the big companies that the article referred to were using fresh wood, wen they do Thermally Aged instrument wood in Finland, they use the best wood that all ready has bin natural dried
( I guess somebody will use it but not any Luthiers from Finland)

Okay, America sucks, Finland rules!!

 

[jTrolt]

Not to rain on the parade, but isn't this another "much ado about nothing" type of trend?

Point being, this is a deep level of research, anecdote and opinion, but again, can anyone really establish clear points as to what difference all of this makes? Better tone? Highly subjective. More stable necks? Hmm...
I distinctly recall a recent series of reviews of imported EBMM's with roasted necks that appeared to be put through the process incorrectly. Factory set up truss rods maxed out just to get instruments to pass, place into packages and ship, so there's some anecdotal evidence that it can do more harm than good.
Moreover,
Years ago, a Bass Player mag article revealed a group of people placing body blanks on a vibrating platform for a crazy amount of time just vibrating. Theory had it, that magic tone of vintage instruments could be attributed to the fact that they'd been played so much, the wood fibers had settled in and firmed up over all the years of reproducing string vibrations, so they could now build new instruments and charge accordingly for that "magic tone of yesteryear"

Sorry, but this looks like another such journey into micromanaging wood fibers that most players really cannot discern any real difference in the instrument's tonality or stability.

 

[Beej]

Im sure you are familiar with Thom Stenback, he is doing many small and big adjustments on Fender style basses down to the very detail you can ask a bunch of the worlds best bass players from all over the world what is special about Stenback, & why they pay that kind of money for a bass made by an young guy from Finland?

No need, I'm a scientist and have a passing familiarity with the 'appeal to authority' cognitive bias.

 

[Inkadibass]

i'm still on the drip myself!

so, is "roasted"/torrefied/thermally-treated wood better for necks than the presumably plain-old-dried/aged wood that most of us play? is it a fad --- market angle? TIA

The thing with Thermally Aged is tha you can get wood to have the same feel like a piece of wood that has dried for 50 -100 years +

i'm still on the drip myself!

so, is "roasted"/torrefied/thermally-treated wood better for necks than the presumably plain-old-dried/aged wood that most of us play? is it a fad --- market angle? TIA

No if you have good wood that has bin laying around since your Granny was a youngster

Not to rain on the parade, but isn't this another "much ado about nothing" type of trend?

Point being, this is a deep level of research, anecdote and opinion, but again, can anyone really establish clear points as to what difference all of this makes? Better tone? Highly subjective. More stable necks? Hmm...
I distinctly recall a recent series of reviews of imported EBMM's with roasted necks that appeared to be put through the process incorrectly. Factory set up truss rods maxed out just to get instruments to pass, place into packages and ship, so there's some anecdotal evidence that it can do more harm than good.
Moreover,
Years ago, a Bass Player mag article revealed a group of people placing body blanks on a vibrating platform for a crazy amount of time just vibrating. Theory had it, that magic tone of vintage instruments could be attributed to the fact that they'd been played so much, the wood fibers had settled in and firmed up over all the years of reproducing string vibrations, so they could now build new instruments and charge accordingly for that "magic tone of yesteryear"

Sorry, but this looks like another such journey into micromanaging wood fibers that most players really cannot discern any real difference in the instrument's tonality or stability.

Sandberg Basses do the vibrating thing, thats not what this is about, this is about change in the cell walls
to just the right amount

 

[Grinderman]

Didn't I tell you to do your research?!

Martin Baas has been doing this for about 20 years already, but he's Dutch so he might do it wrong. (damn, time flies)

Q: What if any is there an influential relationship between the OP and Ruokangas Guitars Juha, Stenback, and or Thermally Aged Woods of Finland?

 

[byacey]

The term "Roasted" is used because it sounds better than "Torrified". The correct way is to thermally treat in a oxygen-free kiln and the amount of brown that you get is based on the amount of sugar in the wood that carmelizes and give the brown shade. Some people wrap the wood in aluminum foil and roast in their kitchen oven, then call that "torrified".

Oxygen free atmosphere is the key. This prevents the wood from oxidizing during the heating process and subsequent breakdown of the cell structure.

 

[Grinderman]

This thread is triggering a sense of déjà vu.

Maybe my foil wasn't produced in the right country of origin.

 

[BishopJP]

So, what is the actual debate, here?

Is it whether or not "thermally modifying" wood has merit in stringed instruments? Or is the discussion about who makes the best "thermally modified" lumber?

I love that this topic is being discussed but I don't love that it's starting to sound like the tone wood debate.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

Tone is in the fingers.
Mic drop.

Oh, I'm just joking.

 

[Max Bogosity]

Years ago, a Bass Player mag article revealed a group of people placing body blanks on a vibrating platform for a crazy amount of time just vibrating. Theory had it, that magic tone of vintage instruments could be attributed to the fact that they'd been played so much, the wood fibers had settled in and firmed up over all the years of reproducing string vibrations, so they could now build new instruments and charge accordingly for that "magic tone of yesteryear"

Guitar Player once did an interview with a guy who had a similar theory about the effects of tobacco smoke. He was suspending guitars over dozens of lit cigarettes to quickly coat them in decades worth of nicotine.

 

[FRoss6788]

Guitar Player once did an interview with a guy who had a similar theory about the effects of tobacco smoke. He was suspending guitars over dozens of lit cigarettes to quickly coat them in decades worth of nicotine.

Eeew...

 

[MPU]

So you have the three point bend statistics to prove that? I feel like every one of these people that treat wood would benefit by working with an engineer and get some testing data. Also, someone explain to me in specific terms the time and temperature and conditions difference between the totally unhelpful industry terms of "Roasted" and "Thermally Aged", because as someone in the field of material science and that work in the paper and pulp industry for decades, they sound like exactly the same thing to me.

I don't have statistic but I've used both. Thermally aged maple (like what Ruokangas uses) is exactly like it says, like very old and dried maple. Planes and sands just like maple. Colour change is very slight, just like the smoke smell. Roasted maple smells like it's taken from bonfire, is pretty brown and, most important, is way, way more brittle. When planed, I got no shavings, just sawdust. You can read what Ruokangas and other Finnish luthiers say about their thermal treatment and compare that what's sold as roasted wood.
https://ruokangas.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Thermally-Aged-Tonewood-2020.pdf
Then I hope you use both thermally aged and roasted wood and tell how you feel they differ. I have no interest in arguing about the differences unless you have worked with both. No use IMO.

 

[FRoss6788]

So, what is the actual debate, here?

Is it whether or not "thermally modifying" wood has merit in stringed instruments? Or is the discussion about who makes the best "thermally modified" lumber?

I love that this topic is being discussed but I don't love that it's starting to sound like the tone wood debate.

The point is, apparently, that there's only one guy, and he's in Finland, that knows how to correctly thermally modify lumber for musical instruments. He apparently knows exactly how long each piece of lumber needs to be treated.