Roger's take, in a nutshell

[J Wilson]

I'd say Mr. Sadowsky's views are based on his experience building many, many of his own instruments, and most builders will couch what they say in terms of their own instruments. As the man who re-wrote the book on Fender pattern basses, I have nothing but huge respect for them and his long experience and success.

For me, this will never be able to be empirically tested as wood is not consistent, either in the trees themselves, the way and when they were harvested (including how old the tree was), the way it is milled into lumber, then blanks, then how the individual vendor and later the builder treated it, how long and how it was aged, and on and on. Way too many variables to draw anything but generalized answers. Then add in how this guy plays that bass vs. another guy playing the same bass, and the deck gets reshuffled even more times.

My own experience looking back over the almost 40 years I've been around them and the axes I used: Harder makes firmer notes, and softer woods have a bit softer edge and bloom to them. Past that . . . . it's a crapshoot.

If it's something I like, I appreciate it for what it is, and I'll make it run down the runway and lift off. Frankly, I'm glad there's some luck of the draw to this, I would not want them to all sound alike, not have their own personality. Learning what that bass likes and doesn't like, and then training it to do what I want is all the fun.

 

[WRM]

Roger is an authority on the subject but he is not infallible. His experience is not objective no matter how great his reputation is. Expressing skepticism should not be construed as ill will or a sign of character flaw.

If there were a rigorous, well designed study on the subject it may or may not reveal that Roger is correct in all his opinions with respect to that subject. There has never been such a study.

A sacred cow is just a cow to the milk-maid.

Absolutely not objective, and I agree. I'd like to see him identify fretboard woods by playing them blindfolded. Basses that he is not familiar with/played before, P's/J's/PJs/, using a statistical representative sample (20+).

It doesn't have to be Roger, I'd like to see anyone ID tonewoods blindfolded (hint) - "Show me".

 

[Guitalia]

People frequently point out that two identical solid-body basses coming off the same production line are likely to sound different. That fact supports both sides of the tonewood debate, I think. If the wood has an effect on tone but the effect is unpredictable, it might as well not have an effect.

Tonewood may genuinely be a factor in how an instrument sounds. I don't care one way or the other. I've never heard a live band and and found myself thinking that the bass would have sounded better if only the body or neck or fingerboard had been made of a different wood. Different amp, maybe; different EQ or other settings, maybe; different sound guy, definitely.

And, of my dozen or so basses, ranging from very cheap (e.g., a $75 closeout 30"-scale SX Precision knockoff) to very expensive, I've usually brought two to each gig, one to play and one as backup. I've also usually rotated through them indiscriminately from gig to gig, mostly because I can go longer between string changes that way. I enjoy playing all of them.

Laura Lee of Khruangbin has played the same SX bass since the band started. (The guitar player in the band plays a Squier Strat with flatwound strings, I believe.) Joey Spampinato of NRBQ usually plays one of his original Danelectro basses (some with a Sears Silvertone logo; I own one of the Sears versions), which we all know were built using only the choicest Masonite tonewood. I love his sound. Pretty sure the guy in Vulfpeck plays some off-brand bass, too.

In short: is tonewood a thing? Maybe, sure, why not? Is it anything I ever think about outside of threads like this? No.

 

[jTrolt]

Very interesting. I appreciate Roger's comments, and happen to agree in general. Doesn't mean some people are imagining things when they hear a difference in body wood, but I'm fairly certain, like Roger, that the fretboard species seems to make the most difference, at least to my ears. And without question, the way any instrument sounds under my fingers does indeed drive the types of things I'm inspired to play.

As for Roger's intentions regarding upcharges for high-end "tonewoods", I can relate, as a professional cabinetmaker of close to 20 years. I have a high level of integrity and reputation that follows it also.
However, I have been asked to build things from species that people simply have their heart set on, regardless of whether I'd recommend it in the first place.
You see, somewhere in between the passion for the work and the necessity of paying my bills and keeping the business floating, I've got to get off the soapbox and simply execute the work as requested. It's not a life altering situation. Trust me, the markup on the lumber is almost irrelevant, and sometimes, the "cheaper" species costs more in overhead, due to inherent defects and what they do to tooling and other expendables, such as sandpaper. Especially with pine pitch, as that stuff will destroy a $75 sanding belt in seconds.

Glad to get a seasoned veteran luthier's take on an often highly debated topic.
Doesn't make him right or wrong automatically, but helps me affirm my general feelings on the matter so if/when I decide to buy another instrument, I won't do quite as much hand wringing over which lumber was used to craft it.

 

[TyBo]

Absolutely not objective, and I agree. I'd like to see him identify fretboard woods by playing them blindfolded. Basses that he is not familiar with/played before, P's/J's/PJs/, using a statistical representative sample (20+).

It doesn't have to be Roger, I'd like to see anyone ID tonewoods blindfolded (hint) - "Show me".

For starters, see the post immediately preceding yours - wood, even from the same tree, can vary significantly in its nature. Pretty simple. An experienced builder like Sadowsky speaking about the general properties of a type of wood, in context, strikes me as unojectionable, acknowledging that there may be exceptions to a general trend.

Sadowsky seems to be as objective as one can be, really, basing what he says on decades of actual experience. Given that we have little actual "science" on the subject, with conflicting results from those studies that do exist (see the various previous threads relating to this stuff), experience like his I find worth paying attention to.

But naturally, as Sadowsky himself says, use your own ears and play what you like.

 

[red_rhino]

It's all in the flour.

Isn't there a YouTube video where a guy stretches pizza dough between two metal tables, and then "proves" that all uncooked pizzas tastes the same and therefore it's the oven, not the dough, that gives pizza its taste?

That's all I got.

 

[Gervais Cote]

I used to prefer rosewood fingerboard rather than maple.

Unfortunately, nowadays, rosewood is somewhat banned and/or difficult to import as we need to save our planet.

I now use maple necks and fretboards and if I need to compensate the the brightness, I use overwound or wooly pickups. Tons of options available nowadays.

Lately I’ve done even better, I used roasted maple necks so I now only need 2 truss rod adjustments for the whole life of the bass instead of 2 per year.

Problems solved, planet saved !

 

[roller]

I always love hearing Roger say he can hear a bigger tonal difference in fretboard woods vs. body woods. I've felt this way for decades.

Now... let's go to one of the 900 ash vs. alder threads on this site.

 

[WRM]

For starters, see the post immediately preceding yours - wood, even from the same tree, can vary significantly in its nature. Pretty simple. An experienced builder like Sadowsky speaking about the general properties of a type of wood, in context, strikes me as unojectionable, acknowledging that there may be exceptions to a general trend.

Sadowsky seems to be as objective as one can be, really, basing what he says on decades of actual experience. Given that we have little actual "science" on the subject, with conflicting results from those studies that do exist (see the various previous threads relating to this stuff), experience like his I find worth paying attention to.

But naturally, as Sadowsky himself says, use your own ears and play what you like.

Exactly - that's why it's folly (IMO)! There are way too many variables to make generalizations.

 

[TyBo]

Exactly - that's why it's folly (IMO)! There are way too many variables to make generalizations.

We disagree about the folly of it. The artistry of a builder like Sadowsky lies partly in having sorted through many of the variables over many, many years, building many, many, many instruments. I'm ready to listen to what he's learned in his journey.

I found his take interesting, that fingerboard material tends to be the most significant factor with wood types. Fits with my own experience, such that is (10 years building, 60 years playing). He's a thoughtful and insightful guy.

 

[Sadowsky]

It is interesting that for his UV70 and Slapmaster Jazz Basses, he uses heavy ash. I that is the only time he does not go for light weight. I also agree with what he says about okume and ebony. My fretless RSD with an okume body and a ebony fingerboard has a great tone.

We never used heavy ash for these models, but they were " full-size bodies" and not chambered, hence the heavier weight.

 

[Sadowsky]

He charges more for some "tonewoods" right? And he's been a successful businessman for many decades? Kinda makes me think his opinion could only go one way on the matter.

Absolutely nothing I discussed involved premium tonewoods.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

We never used heavy ash for these models, but they were " full-size bodies" and not chambered, hence the heavier weight.

I stand (really sit) corrected.

 

[Sadowsky]

The UV70 is supposed to be “ultra vintage”, so it should be heavy ash/maple like 70s Fenders.

I wish more basses were made with ebony boards. They are actually my favorite, although I don't have any right now. Not as bright as maple, but brighter than rosewood.

And more immediate attack and stronger fundamental.

 

[FrenchBassQC]

It's all in the flour.

Gordon Ramsay says ebony flour is brighter..

 

[N4860]

have you ever tried the same model in front of you, one with maple one with rosewood? how many times? how much time?

In my mind, the argument that Gorn makes is valid. There are too many variables to compare between 2 "identical" basses. The basses that you compared with a rosewood and maple fretboard, is it safe to assume that you used the same pickup, strings, body, neck, hardware, setup, and simply switched the fretboards on the bass to compare? Otherwise, how do you know the difference in the sound between the 2 basses was attributed to the fretboard material and not something else like the mass of the body? We all know that 2 basses with all of the same specs can sound wildly different so how do we know what particular attributes are contributing to the different tones?

 

[Sadowsky]

I used to prefer rosewood fingerboard rather than maple.

Unfortunately, nowadays, rosewood is somewhat banned and/or difficult to import as we need to save our planet.

I now use maple necks and fretboards and if I need to compensate the the brightness, I use overwound or wooly pickups. Tons of options available nowadays.

Lately I’ve done even better, I used roasted maple necks so I now only need 2 truss rod adjustments for the whole life of the bass instead of 2 per year.

Problems solved, planet saved !

The ONLY rosewood that is restricted for musical instruments is dalbergia nigra, which is Brazilian Rosewood. 28 other species of rosewood are not restricted. East Indian Rosewood, the most common fingerboard these days, is farmed sustainably.

 

[WRM]

We disagree about the folly of it. The artistry of a builder like Sadowsky lies partly in having sorted through many of the variables over many, many years, building many, many, many instruments. I'm ready to listen to what he's learned in his journey.

I found his take interesting, that fingerboard material tends to be the most significant factor with wood types. Fits with my own experience, such that is (10 years building, 60 years playing). He's a thoughtful and insightful guy.

Nothing personal - note I put the blindfold challenge out to everyone.

In my mind, the argument that Gorn makes is valid. There are too many variables to compare between 2 "identical" basses. The basses that you compared with a rosewood and maple fretboard, is it safe to assume that you used the same pickup, strings, body, neck, hardware, setup, and simply switched the fretboards on the bass to compare? Otherwise, how do you know the difference in the sound between the 2 basses was attributed to the fretboard material and not something else like the mass of the body? We all know that 2 basses with all of the same specs can sound wildly different so how do we know what particular attributes are contributing to the different tones?

WRONG!!!! If tone wood is such a "contributing factor" to the tone of the instrument, it should not matter which bass/configuration!...

 

[logdrum]

I always thought and feel ebony is brighter than maple. Also there are frets embedded in the wood and the string is vibrating of of it. Fretless is where the fretboard may have more impact. I have 2 trelecasters and the rosewood is brighter. Same pickups.. Go figure.

 

[Sadowsky]

In my mind, the argument that Gorn makes is valid. There are too many variables to compare between 2 "identical" basses. The basses that you compared with a rosewood and maple fretboard, is it safe to assume that you used the same pickup, strings, body, neck, hardware, setup, and simply switched the fretboards on the bass to compare? Otherwise, how do you know the difference in the sound between the 2 basses was attributed to the fretboard material and not something else like the mass of the body? We all know that 2 basses with all of the same specs can sound wildly different so how do we know what particular attributes are contributing to the different tones?

I was expressing my experience, not the results of a scientific study. I tend to think that having made about 8000 basses in my workshop over 45 years, with similar designs, pickups, hardware, etc, is about the best empirical evidence you are going to find. Certainly much better than the usual "I don't agree because my maple board Ibanez is warmer than my rosewood board Schecter". That is indeed apples and oranges.

One example I can recall is that I had made a bass for one of the top NYC session guys. It had a maple fingerboard. He played it a bit and complained that he was getting too much "clack" off of the frets. I digested what he was describing and happened to have another neck with a rosewood board that I was about to use on another bass. I put the rosewood board on his bass, and no clack later; he was totally happy. This is just one of many, many experiences I have had that have led me to the opinions I hold. Feel free to think different, but don't question my experience.