rolling tubes on pre-amps: needs a burn in time ?

[Funky40]

Hi Folks, need to ask,
1. can i judge on the sound using new/unused tubes when rolling tubes on new pedals, also with new/unused tubes ?
2. Or would the behave of the tubes/sound change over some burn in time ?
3. if yes, are all tubes kind of similar in that regard ? can i judge based on just 30-60 minutes of use, per rolled tube ?

 

[Dave W]

You can do it the Tim C way and take a blowtorch to them…

Kidding, they don’t need to be burned in. What pedal are you talking about? Generally speaking, pedals with a single 12AX7 just have them for show and they impart no majorly noticeable tonal difference.

 

[Funky40]

Generally speaking, pedals with a single 12AX7 just have them for show

lol !
two pedals with a 12AX7, AMT O- and A-Bass.
Was it a joke ?.....the tubes work certainly ! at least in the O-Bass.
I swaped there the ECC83 for a ECC81, and it was wowsers, big times.
My "Oracle" uses 12AX7 too. Gonna roll there later.

 

[friend33]

What @Dave W is getting at is that many tube-based pedals don’t run tubes at full plate voltages. So, even while getting some tube compression, you won’t hear the full aural nuances when comparing, say, a Mullard vs Amperex ECC83. Going between two types (83/81) will be noticeable due to the significant gain changes. (The H&K Rotosphere/Replex are like that, for example.)

I’m not sure how some of the newer preamp pedals like the Oracle, LA1A, etc. run them.

He’s correct that tubes don’t need any “burn in” time. Plug them in and fire away…

 

[Funky40]

So, even while getting some tube compression, you won’t hear the full aural nuances when comparing,

ok, that gives me a better picture, running tubes on 12V vs. running them with 300V.
I hear this the first time. But makes sense to me.

The tubes in the AMT pres are getting hot. So i´d guess they blow the voltage up.
IIRC, have i read here at TB or at some product pages that they can blow the 12V up, up to 200V or so, but not to the 300V or 350V.
The Oracle runs on the mains and has the Tube at 300V, iirc.

Ok, rolled tubes, played Bass thru my three tube pre´s, and jammed alots with my Drum/groovebox thru these and rolling tubes forth and back. ( NOT rolled anything on the Oracle so far)

Query for the connaisseurs here, @friend33 and others:
which are the best or well known ECC81 brands/models ? I´d like to dive deeper into these, since the one i have is giving me a wider "fade range" from going into compression, crunch, to overdrive vs. my ECC83 tubes.

my ECC81 is much likely something noname, no clue.
The brand is "CVC" i guess. Respectivly has it also written "Chalmer valve" on the package.
I really like to get some more (different) ECC81 tubes.
( but trying to avoid buying from the US, since i´m in switzerland / but the east/southeast european market seems drained vs. when i surfed for tubes allready some 2 years ago / or if i buy in the US, would i have to go to one of the shops and buy more than just 1-2, to justifie shipping and import fees)

Thanks for the replies btw. !
it was so far an awesome experience. A completly new chapter in my music making is opening here up !
And that was now quite a lucky start i´d guess

 

[el murdoque]

Since you are from Switzerland, I can recommend Tube Amp Doctor in Germany.
You can browse their stock of tubes and read the descriptions there, which are not copy&pasted from the manufacturers description but in their own words and you can also contact them if you desire something special.

The AMT bricks run their tubes not only for show, but at full voltage. An easy indicator is looking at the power requirements of a tube driven pedal. If you can run it off a single outlet from a cheap standard pedal board power supply, it's probably just a lightbulb to make you feel good. If the requirements are exceeding that (like the 12V 300mA on the A-Bass), you most likely have a tube that's doing something for real.

 

[Mosfed]

I am a ridiculous tube nerd and have a great collection of NOS tubes that I tend to try in many of my tube based pedals.

The other posters in the thread are correct that more times than not, there is very little difference.

the fact that the tubes run hot in the AMT isn’t any indication of the voltage being fed to the tubes.

I have not found the need for any burn in.

I would say, try away. See what you hear and how you like it. But be prepared to just go back to the new production tube if you don’t hear any benefits.

 

[NoiseNinja]

What @Dave W is getting at is that many tube-based pedals don’t run tubes at full plate voltages.

No, that was not what he said :

Generally speaking, pedals with a single 12AX7 just have them for show and they impart no majorly noticeable tonal difference.

And that would be misleading and just plainly wrong information right there.

Most tube pedals bump up the voltage they are fed with internally, up to the 200V to 300V voltage the tubes are designed to run at, and even in the starved plate voltage design the tubes does have a function, fact is you in fact will get more tube coloration from a starved tube than one that isn't.

Now that is actual facts!

I am a ridiculous tube nerd and have a great collection of NOS tubes that I tend to try in many of my tube based pedals.

The other posters in the thread are correct that more times than not, there is very little difference.

the fact that the tubes run hot in the AMT isn’t any indication of the voltage being fed to the tubes.

I have not found the need for any burn in.

I would say, try away. See what you hear and how you like it. But be prepared to just go back to the new production tube if you don’t hear any benefits.

Yes, I am sure AMT are lying in their product information, cause that wouldn't be illegal or damage the company at all :

• The really high anode voltage (+250…300V).

AMT Bricks A-Bass


Please do you research instead of just flinging out internet rumors and myths uncritically, contributing to spreading false information even further.

 

[Dave W]

Please do you research instead of just flinging out internet rumors and myths uncritically, contributing to spreading false information even further.

I have ears. That work! I'll let you handle all the technical talk about plate voltages and whatnot, I'm just here for real world observation.

Maybe I should have worded it slightly differently. I never noticed a great difference when rolling tubes in the majority of tube based pedals. I can't compare whether the tube being in the circuit or not makes an audible difference.

 

[NoiseNinja]

I have ears. That work! I'll let you handle all the technical talk about plate voltages and whatnot, I'm just here for real world observation.

I can play that game too :

Well, my ears are better than yours!

And you obviously have a distorted view on reality and suffer from delusions.

 

[Dave W]

Well, my ears are better than yours!

What a ridiculous, arrogant, self righteous, and condescending thing to say. Who are you in real life? White Goodman?

Have a fantastic day!

 

[NoiseNinja]

What a ridiculous, arrogant, self righteous, and condescending thing to say. Who are you in real life? White Goodman?

Have a fantastic day!

Look who's speaking...

I have ears. That work! I'll let you handle all the technical talk about plate voltages and whatnot, I'm just here for real world observation.

 

[Funky40]

ok, i rolled now for hours tubes forth an back.
AND: i have tube modules in my modularsynth, starved plate design, and others which seem to build up some voltage ( metasonix).
I´m a sounddesign guy, and might have some advantages from there, when it comes to check out "sounding things", since i´m used to just check any settings.

I get Dave Ws own experience and see where his statements could come from.
I´m lucky enough that i have an extremly capable Bass, which has a John East EQ, but as a 4band configuration.
This, definitly makes a difference here. (plus VERY high output single coils / Nordstrand BigBlades)

My experience now the last hours was mixed:
my first session with Bass was awesome ! some 1-2 tubes were amazing.
In my second session with Bass was all different.
Now i had a tube that just made that boring high "sizzle" or so. I guess thats what you call "hairy".
don´t like it ! next tube did the same, next the same ( allways rolling the same 3-4-5 tubes).
Allways the exactly same "sizzle".

So, i found out, my Bass was now setup different, and i found the cause:
initially was the low mid EQ *cutting*, which i often do ( and the reason why i wanted to have 4 bands, and not just 3).
I boost the Bass, and cut with a mid band "against" the Bass, taking the frenquenzy down, until it suits.
In my second rolling session was the EQ set the other way, everything was slightly boosting, the bass just little, but both mid bands were boosting.

That caused the tubes to behave *completly* different !
and the tubes did exactly that, what i often heard in the past, when listening to tube amps, and what i don´t like!
Noiw, that was a VERY informative experience !

so, i get it, how and why different folks might see tubes different.
My result of these two session were *completly* different, one session vs. the other.

and even in the starved plate voltage design the tubes does have a function, fact is you in fact will get more tube coloration from a starved tube than one that isn't.

Now thats a very interesting statement !
edit (rephrasing): and suits with what i experienced in my modularsynthesizer.




i definitly can say: when my Bass was adjusted well, would i hear a difference between my two ECC81,
while with my Bass adjusted wrong, was everything sounding kind of same.
Same with my two ECC83 .

i get the trick now me thinks: don´t overload the tube input with a to wide range of boosted frequenzy !
tame down some frequenzy bands, to emphasize others.
And then look how the tubes behave.

Since you are from Switzerland, I can recommend Tube Amp Doctor in Germany.

ahh, thats a good idea !

thanks for the feedback everybody !
it helps me to boil down my own experience into something i can relie to.

 

[drumvsbass]

 

[InhumanResource]

What @Dave W is getting at is that many tube-based pedals don’t run tubes at full plate voltages.

Isn’t the idea to run at low plate vintage in order to get the compression folks are after?

 

[707GK]

Generally speaking, pedals with a single 12AX7 just have them for show and they impart no majorly noticeable tonal difference.

Wish I could “downvote” or something similar. This is classic misinformation at its finest.

But in regards to tube rolling, I’m in the camp that changing the gain factor will give you more tonal variation than swapping between brands. And in my experience, the main difference between brands of the same advertised gain factor (12AX7/ECC83), is actually slight variances in that gain factor from brand to brand, and that’s really what gives the difference in tone. For example, a Ruby 12AX7 will have a bit higher gain and will break up easier than a JJ which will stay clean longer. Tonally, they sound the same until pushed to the zone where one tube breaks up and the other doesn’t.

 

[SirMjac28]

I have owned and used plenty of NOS tubes and in my opinion, if the circuit is a new design and its low voltage skip vintage tubes. The only pedal I've owned that I could hear a difference is the Blue Tube.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

lol !
two pedals with a 12AX7, AMT O- and A-Bass.
Was it a joke ?.....the tubes work certainly ! at least in the O-Bass.
I swaped there the ECC83 for a ECC81, and it was wowsers, big times.
My "Oracle" uses 12AX7 too. Gonna roll there later.

Disregard that one guy who said they don't have a noticeable difference. They do. Also, when there is only one, it's that much more so. Seeing as how there's nothing else in the chain.

Me, tung sol, electro harmonix, then jj gold pin.

 

[Funky40]

I’m in the camp that changing the gain factor will give you more tonal variation than swapping between brands.

Thats a VERY interesting statement !
It would in fact coincide with what i experienced.
In fact i had that thought that this "could" be a cause, since the,..... or at least my,.... ECC81 are also noticeable of lower gain.
In my case is it creating a way wider "adjustment range" in regards to going from clean to compression to going into overdrive.
My interest is to have here a wide range. .....with a wide "adjustment range" of all the inbetweens.* / **
Ok, we are here on something ! ( at least vs. my personal needs )


* Same is true for my modularsynth tube-modules ! ....and there thats NOT a given.
There have been VERY hyped modules, but they do NOT deliver "that" ( that wide "adjustment range")


** on the other side do some of my tubes break up further, (now, tube rolling in my pedals)
They *really* break up. Its super interesting for some sorts of distortion. Its kind of a double break up.
They go nasty, but in the lows, like adding a suboscillator.
It sounds like you have to worry for the whole electronics, like you could damage something, lol.
( super interesting, but finally not the sounds i´m after )


thanks again for the feedback ! thats awesome.

 

[Funky40]

Isn’t the idea to run at low plate vintage in order to get the compression folks are after?

a intersting question !
i´m after that compression too. Its a main aspect of what i just got to love with the tubes.
( i have my arkham Oracle also very freshly)


in the modularsynth, all my tube modules, ....some are starved plate designs, some are not....they state,.....do then tube modules, ALL of them, go very quick into harsh and wild distortions.
None is doing the nice compression mode thing with a nice transition into slight and tame overdrive and from there into more OD.