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rolling tubes on pre-amps: needs a burn in time ?

Isn’t the idea to run at low plate vintage in order to get the compression folks are after?

I mentioned/noted that in my post.:cool:

The place where tube differences is most clearly revealed is at the point of break up. If you’re not pushing tubes to that point in a pedal, those differences are not going to be as noticeable. I’m with @SirMjac28 that it’s a waste of time/money to go down the NOS/ANOS rabbit hole in that case. A JJ or whatever will sound just fine and provide the tube characteristics that are needed in terms of the pedal design. (If you go from a 12ax7 to an at7, you are going from a tube with a gain factor of 100 down to 60. You will hear that.)

If you do have a device that goes beyond that and want the “best” ones, you are looking at many of the usual suspects: Mullard, Brimar, Amperex/Phillips, RCA blackplates, GE grey plates, etc. I have a pretty extensive tube stash and have or have used all of those except for the Phillips. They are all good/recommended. (The military equivalents are CV4024 for the British tubes and 6201/12at7WA for the American tubes.)

Have fun!
 
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No, that was not what he said :



o_O

And that would be misleading and just plainly wrong information right there. :rollno:

Most tube pedals bump up the voltage they are fed with internally, up to the 200V to 300V voltage the tubes are designed to run at, and even in the starved plate voltage design the tubes does have a function, fact is you in fact will get more tube coloration from a starved tube than one that isn't.

Now that is actual facts!



Yes, I am sure AMT are lying in their product information, cause that wouldn't be illegal or damage the company at all :


AMT Bricks A-Bass


Please do you research instead of just flinging out internet rumors and myths uncritically, contributing to spreading false information even further.

:rolleyes:

sorry that I don’t read manuals of pedals I don’t have before responding to your thread.

all I said is that the fact that the tube “ran hot” didn’t mean anything. Good for you that it runs at full voltage. You might want to learn how to respond to people who are just trying to help you.
 
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Thats a VERY interesting statement !
It would in fact coincide with what i experienced.
In fact i had that thought that this "could" be a cause, since the,..... or at least my,.... ECC81 are also noticeable of lower gain.
In my case is it creating a way wider "adjustment range" in regards to going from clean to compression to going into overdrive.
My interest is to have here a wide range. .....with a wide "adjustment range" of all the inbetweens.* / **
Ok, we are here on something ! ( at least vs. my personal needs )

Yep, a lower gain tube like ECC82 or ECC81 give more “in between” and available adjustments of “warm/fat” before getting fuzzy. It makes the level of harmonic distortion (which is what the tube warmth is) easier to dial in and with more options between totally clean and fuzzy.

Also, each preamp circuit is designed differently and with different boosts/cuts to different frequencies. A 12AX7 driven Mesa will sound different than a 12AX7 driven Ashdown because they have different tone stacks and this has nothing to do with tube selection. Not all tube preamps sound the same and it might be worth checking out a few different ones to see if maybe you like the tone of one over the other. But this can be way more expensive than tube rolling…unless you’re only rolling rare NOS tubes.
 
I need to hijack this thread for the sake of help from you tube gurus. I have a 1931 majestic cathedral radio, it’s missing a tube(bought it from estate sale)but it works? I’m wondering why or how the radio works with a missing tube.

I apologize for hacking in, but I’ve scoured the net for nearly a year and cannot find help on this situation.
 
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Thank You !
that answers my second query i had.
immensly useful thread for me !


So, ECC81 is the low gain ones ? (thats the 12at7, right ? )
ECC 83 (12ax7) is the high gain ones
and where is the ECC82 to place ? ( 12AU7 )

Gain factor (military equivalents in parenthesis):

100 = 12ax7/ECC83 (CV4004/7025)
70 = 5751
60 = 12at7/ECC81 (CV4024/6201/12at7WA)
44 = 12ay7 (6072A)
20 = 12au7/ECC82 (5963)

There are other military/industrial numbers/variants, these are some of the most common. You’ll see the 12ay7 gain factor listed anywhere from 40-45.

It should be noted that not every piece of tube based equipment is designed for randomly swapping any/all of these - check with your manufacturer. The at7 in particular is slightly different from the rest of the family. (Milkman’s kid?:unsure:)
 
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I haven't rolled tubes in pedals, but I have rolled quite a few in preamps.

The tube interacts with the circuit it is in. Some circuits make it fairly easy to hear differences between different models of tubes. Other circuits pretty much make all tubes sound the same; so at most you may hear a subtle difference in gain.

Differences you may observe:
1. Variance in the tonal contour.
2. Variance in gain.
3. Variance in how the tubes transition from clean to compressed to overdriven.
4. Variance in the tone or quality of the OD
5. Variance in distortion or harmonic content when the tube is run clean.

@BassikBrad has done some response plots of various tubes he has rolled. The surprising thing is the tone contour can be almost identical between two tubes that sound like they have a noticeably different tonal balance. My guess is part of the difference may be in how the tubes respond dynamically to different frequency ranges.

It's true that 12AX7, 12AT7, and 12AU7 all fit in the same socket. It's also true that they have different voltage gain factors. From a technical standpoint the circuit should be optimized to run a specific tube type. Tube are usually biased to the center of their operation range. 12AX7 and 12AU7 in particular have significantly different bias points. So 12AU7 may not work particularly well in a particular circuit set up for 12AX7. In most instances I believe there is little risk of damage though.

upload_2021-9-16_14-27-32.png


Also there is some degree or matching the tube type to the circuit. In particular, 12AU7 is probably a better choice for cathode followers because it has a much higher current capacity than 12AX7. Keep in mind the gain factor of a cathode follower is <1. Also this is not a recommendation to put 12AU7 in cathode follower circuits that are setup to run other tube types.

People often swap a lower gain tube into a circuit with the idea that they get more clean headroom. In most circumstance this not what happens. Instead you may be able to turn the gain up higher before distortion sets in, but the circuit will actually have less clean headroom. Unfortunately a lot of people interpret what there eyes are telling them to mean the amp has more clean headroom.

Swapping tube types may still be useful if your actual goal is to allow the gain control to operate in a higher range where it works better. For example, 12AT7 is the original tube used as a Reverb Driver in many vintage Fender amps. Unfortunately the Reverb control can be very touchy when the amp has a 12AT7 reverb driver. It's fairly common to throw in 12AU7, which allows you to run the control higher in a higher range. In my experience the reverb is changed subtly as well, which some like and others do not.

I have rolled a majority of the current production 12AX7 types. I do not have much experience subbing in different tube types. My observation is the 12AX7 seems to have more tonal variation than the other tube types. For bass amps my favorite combination is a current production Mullard ECC83 in V1 and JJ ECC803S pretty much everywhere else. But this combination is not always what an amp needs to give me the sound I want. Also you may hate this combination, so roll our own.

JJ ECC83S tends to sound way different than the JJ ECC803S. My perception is the ECC83S is relatively low gain and focuses on the mids. It does not seem to have much extension in the lows or highs, so to me it seems like it has a narrower bandwidth than other tubes. It also seems to have a bit of grainy texture in the high mids, like it is always on the verge of breaking up. In every instance where I rolled tubes in a bass amp, the JJ ECC83Ss came out. I have recycled some of them in my a few of my guitar amps though. Also some people love the JJ ECC83S in bass amps.

To my ears the JJ ECC803S has a wider bandwidth. The lows are somewhat lean, but focused, muscular, and clear. Rather than having a texture, this tube seems to add what I call a harmonic shimmer in the upper mids. To me I perceive the harmonic shimmer as color rather than a texture. I does not add gank in the high mids.

If you like gank in the high mids, try a current production Tung Sol 12AX7. This is probably the highest rated 12AX7 on the market, and I can understand why people love it. But it tends to be very punchy and hard sounding to my ears, especially in the high mids where I like a bit of a dip and maybe some compression.

I could potentially see a use for a Tung Sol 12AX7 in V1 and and JJ ECC83S in V2. The Tung Sol is clean and seems to be above average gain; so it could be useful if you want to push V2 into distortion.

In some circuits the tonal difference between the tubes I have mentioned can be very noticeable. In other circuits they all sound pretty much the same.

So in my experience tubes do seem to have sort of a personality, but the degree in which this personality emerges varies by the circuit the tube is run in. Also, the personality may vary somewhat across circuits.

The changes a device needs to produce the sound you want can vary from one device to the next. So a Tung Sol may be the perfect tube for one device and awful in the next.

The ideal tube can also depend on how you intend to use the circuit. For example I rolled tubes in one of my amp's OD circuits and the standard Gold Lion ECC83 (Chinese) was my favorite. However, so far I have found that I prefer the Russian ECC83/B759 in circuits that are run clean.

The tube you ultimately choose may require you to decide which quality you find more important. The first time I rolled tubes I found it really hard to choose between the current product Mullard ECC83 and the Gold Lion ECC83/B759 for V1. Both sounded fabulous but for different reasons.

The Gold Lion had awesome mids with sort of a vocal quality, but when I turned up the lows they became sort of loose and woolly. The Mullard produced heavier lows that were tight and focused. I choose the Mullard. I felt that I could crank up the mids on the Mullard and get 95% to the Gold Lions magic. But if I cranked up the lows on the Gold Lion, the sound was more like a Sovtek 12AX7LPS.

I have always been hyper focused on tone. I would say in most instances the change you will produce by swapping tubes tends to be rather subtle. Some will not be able to discern the difference, and some will not hear a difference that is significant enough to warrant the cost of the tube(s). Conversely you may find that a subtle change is all you need to go from hating a device to loving it.

IMHO, if you are interested and can afford it, roll some tubes and make your own decisions. You may find that it can be very worthwhile, or that it is a complete waste of time and money.

I suggest that you roll the various tubes you have through each circuit. In other words find the specific tube you like in each tube position, rather than taking a shotgun approach where you replace all tubes at once.

Also, consider going through a second and possibly third round of tube rolling. The idea is you may find a certain gestalt from a specific combination of tubes. You may not find this combination if you accept the choices you made in the first round of tube rolling.
 
I need to hijack this thread for the sake of help from you tube gurus. I have a 1931 majestic cathedral radio, it’s missing a tube(bought it from estate sale)but it works? I’m wondering why or how the radio works with a missing tube.

I apologize for hacking in, but I’ve scoured the net for nearly a year and cannot find help on this situation.
Depends on the radio and how it's made, as well as options/settings. Does every single function of the radio work? The only way (I can think of) you could remove a tube in the signal path with the amplifier/device still working is in the case of paralleled tube stages. For example the Effectrode LA-1A has a pair of 12AU7 in paralle; if you remove one tube the pedal will still work and pass signal like it did before, it just affects the tone.

Is "rolling" tubes the same as "swapping"?

Yup, just a word people like to use for swapping tubes with the intention of comparing and getting a better sound.
 
wow @Wasnex, ...i need to come back later and take some quotes, just that it was quoted ;)
and give some feedback.
much thanks also to @friend33.
What a thread.

in my specific case is it btw. only about pedals that are directly pre-amps, or could be considered to be pre-amps,
a sort of mixed use ones, preAmp and OD.

BUT: i´m a sounddesign guy, i make electronic music ( former Bassist, back to play some Bass again),
and the "idea" was, that i maybe could use these tube things also for other gear. Electronic gear and E-Piano.

.....need to leave the house, NOW.
Thanks !
 
Just saw that Mike at KCANOS has the Mullard CV4024 on sale this month at $70/pair (usually $40 each). Those K-labeled tubes in the plain white boxes that I’ve had always tested to full NOS spec and are a great sounding at7.:cool: (No affiliation, but any tubes I’ve sourced there over the years have been spot-on, he’s a highly reputable dealer.)
 
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I am really satisfied with the tone I get from the 2 EHX 12AX7EH preamp tubes in my EHX Black Finger (which I use more as a tube preamp than compressor, as I have the compression control set to minimum, basically meaning that the compression never actually kicks in), which run it's tubes at proper high 300V voltage, and the 1 EHX 12AX7EH, which made a huge improvement over the harsh and somewhat thin sounding cheap Chinese stock tube, in my ART Tube MP Project Series tube preamp, which utilize a starved tube plate design (read somewhere that someone had measured it to be around 70V).

Admittedly I haven't tried a lot of different tubes, just know that I like the EHX 12AX7EH ones, which also seems generally to get good reviews.

I am curious though if the tone of my Black Finger and ART tube preamp could be improved by using different tubes though

I have the Black Finger's input gain turned up so that the tubes are just on the verge of breakup when I dig in, and have the ART tube preamp's gain dialed up so that the tube is just right above the breakup point.

@Wasnex 's description made me want to try out the Tung Sol 12AX7 and the JJ ECC803S tubes.

Anyone know what function the 2 tubes in the EHX Black Finger respectively serves and which would be which?

As far as I know the Black Finger is basically an optical compressor circuit build in between the input and output stage of a tube preamp.

I am quite sure one of the tubes handles the input gain, but which one of them would that be, and what then does the other tube do, handle the output stage perhaps?

But then again if that was true, how come it doesn't break up when you crank up the Post Gain (output gain) like the input tube does when cranking up the Pre Gain (input gain)?
 
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@friend33
Thanks for the tip (the shop) !
i will have to get me some tubes from the US sooner or later, in one go.

Is it possible to make a general statement vs. the terms: "long plate" vs. "short plate" ?
I stumbled several times over that, that people seemed to prefer or hype a "long plate" version.
For example in the Arkam Zephyr/Oracle thread.

Also: stumbled over the term "blackplate" respectivly "long blackplate".
Guess, the latter is the both in one.
 
Longplate vs shortplate refers to the length of the plates (17mm vs 14mm respectively in a 12ax7.)

Blackplate vs greyplate refers to the color of the plates. (Helps with identification - plates can also be ribbed or smooth, crimped or folded, have different hole patterns, etc.)

As a broad generalization, longplates tend to be more detailed but can also more susceptible to microphonics.

Good place to bring up the context of tube history to see why some of this is the way it is. Back in the day, tubes were used in pretty much everything, and guitar amplifiers represented a very, very small share of that market. Excessive vibrations could be a problem, certainly in things such as car radios, so the move to shortplates reduced this issue to some degree. For military and industrial uses, such as missile guidance systems, aircraft, tanks, etc., this could be even more of a problem. So, you’ll find that most of the military tubes are “ruggedized” in some fashion, typically with a third mica spacer added to the normal pair (“triple mica”), using thicker glass, etc.

As far as amps go, running tubes in a head will reduce vibration issues, as you are moving the tubes out of the speaker cabinet.
 
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Thats really interesting ! especially also the part with "moving the amps out of the speaker cabinet".


I was somehow under the opinion that "long plate" seemed to be higher regarded for audio uses. ok,........"detailed" is a good term for us, no ? ;)
But it seems, its no "thaaat" crucial.
As a broad generalization, longplates tend to be more detailed but can also more susceptible to microphonics.
Thank you !
 
Thats really interesting ! especially also the part with "moving the amps out of the speaker cabinet".


I was somehow under the opinion that "long plate" seemed to be higher regarded for audio uses. ok,........"detailed" is a good term for us, no ? ;)
But it seems, its no "thaaat" crucial.

Thank you !

I think you should simply roll tubes and choose whichever you like. You may find that you like some long plates and some short plates.

IMHO the biggest take away is long plate tubes are more likely to rattle sympathetically with the vibrations of your amp than short plate tubes...and most people put there amp right on top of the speaker.

As I mentioned earlier, the combination I tend to like in bass amps is a current production Mullard ECC83 in V1 and JJ ECC803S everywhere else. Both are long plates. The JJ is usually my second or third choice for V1, but on a few occasions, I have found one that has been too sensitive to mechanical shocks in V1. When I plugged the guitar cord into the amp, the JJ might made a tinkling sound. This does not happen with every JJ ECC803S.

The current production Gold Lion ECC83/B759 (Russia) is another long plate tube that I think sounds fabulous.

The standard Gold Lion ECC83 (Sino) is a short plate. When I rolled it in my TE V8 the Sino 12AX7B was almost identical to the Gold Lion. I prefer the Sino Gold Lion if the circuit will be pushed into OD.

I recently rolled 12AT7s in a Mesa D180. Apparently V3 in this amp is super sensitive to mechanical noise. When I first bought it I thought it sound fabulous, but one of the tubes was rattling. The original tube was a Mesa 12AT7. I tried an EH12AT7 which I believe is a long plate. It sounded similar to the original tube and also rattled. Next I tried a Jan 12AT7WC, which I believe is another short plate. It had a different sound and rattled less. I finally settled on a Mullard CV4024 which is also a short plate. This tube was warmer sounding and had less hum. Finally no rattle, but I prefer the tone of the original tube :bored:.

After the ordeal I ordered an EH12AT7WC and a Tung Sol 12AT7, which are both well reviewed current production, short plates.
 
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I play *right now* a VST (modelled) E-Piano thru all my three tube-pres, patched in series. (all set to active)
AMT O-Bass, AMT A-Bass, then into the arkham Oracle. Its really a completly new experience, how the "vibrations" between a two-tone interact with the tube sound, giving a very pronounced LFO effect, that changes with your two-tone/chord settings, and becomes so kinda playable.

The AMT A-Bass is behaving btw. like it would add a touch of a "microphonic" sound to my E-Piano sound, something slightly metallic resonant.
Is this even possible .......i mean that a tube would add a tonal something to your tone, similar, as you would slightly "ping" the tube with your hand/Finger ?....just that this is added to your sound without touching the tube ( and no vibrations going on)


I have btw. no AMP ! only pre-amp uses.
So in my case are vibrations from the AMP (or any other such) a non existing thing.


i finally found now my entry into tube sound, and tube rolling, within the last days.
In a good way, not following blindly some hypes.

This thread is awesome !
usually it would take me years of reading in forums, to get such a good overview on a thematic, as i got just by reading your answers.

Thank you very much Guys !
It made my music-playing experience allready better !

I think you should simply roll tubes and choose whichever you like
i´m in switzerland.
I need to import the tubes, is it from germany or eBay ( Ukraine, Greece), or US.
It quite rapidly adds additional costs for shipping and import to it, that are in No relation to the value of the goods.
So, its not so easy "to just get some tubes". ;)
Its really a good thing to have a picture upfront, and then to try to get some good ones in one go from one spot.
Exept eBay, and buying from the east, and keeping it under the import threshold.
so in short: its a bit more complicated and costly for me, than for you in the US, or even just for somebody in Germany.
 
I stumbled over another thing:
looking at tubes in shops, they often refer to V1, V2, V3.
I understand thats for guitar/Bass amps which use several tubes in series.

Now, i personally have only 3 tube *preamps* ( each, having just one tube), NOT "real" Amps.
(Oracle, AMT A-Bass, AMT O-Bass) ( all of them use originally 12AX7 )
1. i guess what i need is the V1 tube, right ?
2. But what if i use tubes rated for V2 or V3 ?
Am i right thinking it would not damage anything, but the tubes might not unleash their "meant to be" sound potential ?
 
I stumbled over another thing:
looking at tubes in shops, they often refer to V1, V2, V3.
I understand thats for guitar/Bass amps which use several tubes in series.

Now, i personally have only 3 tube *preamps* ( each, having just one tube), NOT "real" Amps.
(Oracle, AMT A-Bass, AMT O-Bass) ( all of them use originally 12AX7 )
1. i guess what i need is the V1 tube, right ?
2. But what if i use tubes rated for V2 or V3 ?
Am i right thinking it would not damage anything, but the tubes might not unleash their "meant to be" sound potential ?

In amps it's generally recommended to try your highest quality tubes in the first tube in the signal path. The tube will typically be designated as V1, but not always. For example, the Ashdown LB30/CTM30 has two 12AX7s in the preamp that are designated V3 and V2. The Phase Inverter is a 12AU7 and it is labeled V1.

In my experience it can be unpredictable which tube slot will respond most to tube rolling. Sometimes the first tube in the signal path doesn't make a difference, but in some instances the first tube does not respond to tube rolling; while another tube does.

The fact that your tube preamps only have one tube is irrelevant. It depends upon what the tube does and how the circuit is set up.

Higher quality tube characteristic may include:
1. low noise/microphonics
2. high gain
3. balance sections
4. matching multiple tubes

IMHO low noise is always preferential, but not always necessary. The other three qualities may be beneficial or irrelevant. Again it depend on the circuit and how it is set up.
 
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There aren’t any tube types specific to v1 vs v2 or v3 except as a circuit is designed.

V1 just (generally) means valve #1 in the chain. Other numbers follow in order, from preamp to power section.

Preamp tubes can serve in those positions as a general/overall gain boost, for reverb or tremolo, as a phase inverter for the power tubes, etc.
 
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