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Double Bass Roots on 1

#41
I'm not trying to pick fights either. I'm not trying to convince I'm right and someone else is wrong either. I'm just calling it as I see it, after thinking about it for 20+ years. There are many more wrong ways to play changes than there are right ways. This has a lot to do with rules that come out of a long history of music, from classical to folk, jazz, pop. In this case of walking bass lines it is not, as you stated, a note within a bass line isn't played in a vacuum. It has to fit with the environment, and its own melodic structure. But the melodic structure makes rules of its own as it progresses. So for me, in the example I gave, the root on the 1 was breaking those rules. I've heard lines in which going from the 7 of a dominant chord to the 1 of a tonic worked. And that also was a result of a strong melody that worked in its environment. Tell me how that is narrow minded?
 
#45
There's no set rule but in blues or r'n'b you'll mostly stick to the root. If the chord lasts more than a bar however you want to hit the octave, the 5th or the 3rd at the beginning of the next bar or does not sound like you are walking. In a real jazz environment, you tend to hit the 3rd and the 5th more often. Occcasionally the 7th or 6th. The biggest difference is how you use the passing notes in jazz. Half step from below, scale note from above, chromatic or 5th approach. Ed friendland books on walking bass are excellent and will teach you anything you need to know.
 
#46
"Originally Posted by Marc Piane
I guess I just find your way of thinking pretty narrow.

I try not to be judgmental of cats that do it differently than I would."


I think you know you are taking my quote out of context. I'm talking music here. I can see where you are coming from as far as note choice ideas and THAT I am not judging.

I find your way of writing is very dogmatic however. That part I am judging. I think of 'rules' as self imposed and ideas of right and wrong as subjective. Part of being a working pro is knowing the conventions but I think it is also having a musical personality interjecting some of you into the proceedings. Otherwise there would be just one way to play and we would all sound the same.

I know it has really changed my playing and teaching for the better when I stopped thinking black and white. Previously I might tell a student 'this is the best way' now I have changed it to 'this is the way that has worked for me'. It's subtle but it's amazing how it changed MY whole mindset.

The same applies here. There is no doubt you know a thing or two about bass. Most of the lurkers here do not. They hang on the things they read. I don't want someone to say about something I posted "Hey, I'd better not do that because that cat at Talkbass said it was wrong".

I really don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. I've said my peace. Off to the shed.
 
#47
hdiddy said:
No, we're reading what you're saying and your statements are contradictory to us. Apparently you don't feel that way.
Click to expand...

I don't think my statements are contrary to yours. My first reaction in this thread was to the statement that the root on the 1 always works. I disagreed, and argued that it depended on the line that was being played. I've seen you stating the same thing. In all my other posts I tried to be more clear about the same thing.

Taking (incomplete) sentences of my posts out of context as "proof" of my "narrow mindedness" is easy, and the result paints a wrong picture of my ideas.
When I talk about rules, I don't mean rigid laws. Everything we do has consequences. When we start to play a walking bass line, the first note can be any note we like. Choosing this note limits the choice of notes we have for the second note. Second limits the third, and so on and so on. As do the things that are going on around us, the song we play, and this goes on till the end of the piece. If the music starts to go in a direction, we can choose to go with it, thus setting a rule. We can choose to abandon that direction, setting another rule. But the choice sometimes works, and sometimes it doesn't. Isn't it better to acknowlegde the "failure", which is in itself no big deal. Sh*t happens.
 
#48
Marc Piane said:
"Originally Posted by Marc Piane
I guess I just find your way of thinking pretty narrow.

I try not to be judgmental of cats that do it differently than I would."


I think you know you are taking my quote out of context. I'm talking music here. I can see where you are coming from as far as note choice ideas and THAT I am not judging.

I find your way of writing is very dogmatic however. That part I am judging. I think of 'rules' as self imposed and ideas of right and wrong as subjective. Part of being a working pro is knowing the conventions but I think it is also having a musical personality interjecting some of you into the proceedings. Otherwise there would be just one way to play and we would all sound the same.

I know it has really changed my playing and teaching for the better when I stopped thinking black and white. Previously I might tell a student 'this is the best way' now I have changed it to 'this is the way that has worked for me'. It's subtle but it's amazing how it changed MY whole mindset.

The same applies here. There is no doubt you know a thing or two about bass. Most of the lurkers here do not. They hang on the things they read. I don't want someone to say about something I posted "Hey, I'd better not do that because that cat at Talkbass said it was wrong".

I really don't want this to turn into a pissing contest. I've said my peace. Off to the shed.
Click to expand...

Reading all of this makes me convinced we do think alike. Maybe the way I express myself isn't always clear enough, english is not my first language.

You're right of course, I did quote you out of context. But it felt like you did the same to me. Now I just think you misunderstood me.

Lastly, when I talk about right and wrong, it's not based on theoretical rules that have been set beforehand. I'm sure you've heard people play things that didn't sound right. When I do, after analyzing why that is, I find it usually is because a melody is not finished, or something isn't logical. So if someone asks me to explain my way of thinking, I tell them how I think about melodic structure, logic etc. And then I tell them to find their own logic, their own melodies etc.
 
#52
I perceive that roots , and fifths as well,played in a bass line, often produce a fatter, warmer sound than do other notes, in relation to their support of the ensemble. It is within the idea of orchestration that this concept applies. Same "rules" apply as did for Bach, or Beethoven. What notes on the bass properly support the sonorities of the ensemble? This is often the root or the fifth. Sometimes it will not. Develope a nice taste for this and you will well know to play roots or not.
 
#53
As usual, there's a simple answer.

Transcribe.

When you see something other than a root on the downbeat, flag it. Transcribe a couple dozen more lines, preferably with several each by the major guys like Paul, Ray, and Ron.

Look for trends. We could hand you the answers, but cut your own wood and it'll warm you twice.
 
#54
...and every situation is different.



Last week two of the gigs I had required COMPLETELY different approaches.

The first was a hump thing. Everything was super pocket. We followed forms pretty strictly. Stayed fairly close to standard harmonies. Swung the poop out of stuff.

The second as a guitar trio thing and everything went way out both rhythmically and harmonically. I'm not sure I played a root all night.

Ears. It's all about the ears.
 
#55
May I chime in? When I was a young bass player under the tutelage of the great Cecil McBee, he spent a lot of time on the construction of coherent bass lines. From the perspective of a beginner, the idea was to learn how to approach strong tones of the chord (mainly I, III, V, sometimes VI (IV on minor or sus)) as well as connecting to the next chord. For study(not as a lifetime "rule") purposes, he insisted that I always approach these tones from half-step below or above. This is basically a study of classical bass motion, and for me it really developed my sense of how to create melodic yet functional bass lines using strong and passing tones. Thanks largely to Cecil's early guidance and lots and lots of listening, I feel pretty much at ease playing any note I chose to on the 1st beat because I know I can resolve it logically; I'm not actually thinking about it while I play, but I know I can explain anything I play if I were asked (I never am asked, of course!). When I listen to players I love(say Wilbur Ware, Jimmy Garrison, Ron Carter, etc.), I certainly don't hear tonic on the 1st beat all the time. What I hear is a clear musical concept, which the rest of the band responds to. If a band leader is telling you to play tonic on the 1st beat all the time, either the bassist's concept is not clear or the band leader hasn't figured out how to listen to bass. IMHO
 
#56
CD's mention of cutting wood and thinking about all the responses, I'm kinda surprised nobody said that the pure act of roots on 1 is just "chopping wood". It's getting a job done. Its' not really about communication and interaction.

Playing melodically or with a harmonic intent is another story. It's no longer an emphasis on laying down a very basic and predictable foundation, which is what everybody else is getting at. I think it's worth pointing that out to the OP. Chopping wood is useful, but the other stuff is far more fun and musical, but also harder.
 
#58
hdiddy said:
CD's mention of cutting wood and thinking about all the responses, I'm kinda surprised nobody said that the pure act of roots on 1 is just "chopping wood". It's getting a job done. Its' not really about communication and interaction.

Playing melodically or with a harmonic intent is another story. It's no longer an emphasis on laying down a very basic and predictable foundation, which is what everybody else is getting at. I think it's worth pointing that out to the OP. Chopping wood is useful, but the other stuff is far more fun and musical, but also harder.
Click to expand...

Something about this mindset isn't sitting well with me but I'm not sure what it is specifically. I guess I just don't want to malign the poor root or relegate it to wood spitting duties alone.
 
#59
I think the part you're not liking is about the brave attempt to make music out of any situation, including the ****** ones. It's no longer about making music but getting through a tune. Wish I could always play with better players but sometimes I get in a situation where some people can't handle just about anything. Out of ideas? Chop wood.
 
#60
We as jazz musicians waste so many calories trying to be different. Look at the term "jazz musician." "Jazz" is just a modifier. The important part is "musician."

What is the function of the bass? Be it tuba, left hand, one of Charlie Hunter's fingers, the pedals on a B-3... What is the function?

We play 1 and 5 on the strong beats. That's the basic job description. Sometimes we don't. Wanna know when we don't? Study the music.
 

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