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RUSh at Barclays Center Last Night - Problems

#41
dhsierra1 said:
this is very interesting, I didn't know that :hmm:

So in theory, then, you'd have to have something to suspend over the floor to break that up for a musical performance. Some sort of diffusor or ??
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As I'm not a sound engineer...I'm not exactly sure.
But in stagehanding for 17 years at our terrible sounding civic center, the only shows that were ever amazing sounding were acts where the sound engineers spent as much time as possible with pink noise generators, leveling the room. Loud, obnoxious and time consuming...they're few and far between now~ and the shows suffer because of it.
Also...in general....these tend to be acts with older, wiser crews...and bigger names in general.
I wonder if newer acts tend to be under more cost restraints/ pressure to use more 'modern' time saving technology in todays economic climate, whereas bigger acts make the money either way and are allowed to do what they want.

I have even seen shows where different bands had far superior sound than other acts on the same bill using 'roughly' the same sound equipment. Its all about how much time they want to put into it.

This doesn't at all explain the OP as this is counter to all my observations. Strange indeed.
 
#43
I drove up to Cleveland to see them Sunday night. We had great seats. Started off promising. They opened with Subdivisions and the low end of Geddy's keys were coming through loud and clean. As soon as he switched to bass....nothin'. Well it was there but you could barely hear it. He was audible at times but overall dissapointing from a bass mix perspective. That being said, they played their @sses off and delivered a great show. It was cool seeing the "special guests".

Also, saw Geddy use some of his new Fender Jazz basses I read about here in a previous thread. Still would like to have heard him better.
 
#45
I was planning on going to Cleveland, but the cheapest tickets available were still almost $90 with service fees. Tack that on to gas and the exhaustion factor of a 4 hour drive, then things like meals and any extras, and it was just implausible. I'm sorry I missed it, but it would have been expensive and stressful. I saw them on the Time Machine tour...maybe I'll catch the next one...R40.
 
#46
Same issue in Buffalo - indistinct low end and no clarity.
If they can pump music into the arena during a hockey game and it sounds great, what's the problem with going through a PA? I defiantly think part of it is how sound engineers are mixing these day and putting a lot of content through the subs. Seeing Rush should be about being able to hear what each guy is doing and how they're interacting with the other guys - not dance hall sub bass. They payed great however and the string section was a nice addition. The production was amazing.
 
#47
I have seen RUSH a dozen times in a variety of big venues and it has always been hit and miss. But I don't think it is just RUSH - it seems hit and miss with all other arena bands as well. With that said, I can't think of a harder gig than mixing prog rock in a sports arena. Difficult acoustics + short set up times / critical listeners = complaints, complaints, complaints!
 
#49
agreatheight said:
I have seen RUSH a dozen times in a variety of big venues and it has always been hit and miss. But I don't think it is just RUSH - it seems hit and miss with all other arena bands as well. With that said, I can't think of a harder gig than mixing prog rock in a sports arena. Difficult acoustics + short set up times / critical listeners = complaints, complaints, complaints!
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I don't agree. The line array speakers are set up specifically to get broad coverage in the arena. It might be difficult if the stadium is empty but with a capacity crowd there is no problem mixing the venue. As someone said they can get the sound fine at game night and that is given that there's little or no one on the floor of the venue then. With the floor vacant you would have more difficulty mixing but with a packed venue the crowd absorbs the sound. It simply comes down to poor mixing. I think the sound guys generally use the band as a guide to wether or not things are right and a lot of sound guys tend to go deaf with age. Geddy Neil and Alex are oblivious to the sound output because the mix is pretty much customized to their liking through inears. I reckon they need to get rid of the sound guy and get younger blood. Boston was beyond crap. People were complaining after the first set. Yyz you could hardly hear the bass at all. Shame really it cost me nearly $3000 to go.
 
#50
It’s true that the space affects the sound. The new “Hockey arenas” now mostly have domed shaped ceiling as opposed to the older flat ceilings of buildings past. BUT…

...when you pay $100 to “hear” a big name band in an NHL/NBA venue, and get there early enough to watch the sound “engineer” start his mix by jacking up the kick drum as LOUD AS POSSIBLE. You know you’re in for a very bad night. This “Donna Summer mix” has ruined a many concert. The band has no idea what they sound like BECAUSE of their inears. The house and monitor mixes are totally separate. The greatest players with the greatest gear are at the total mercy of one set of ears in front of a master board.

Who’s at fault? The musicians… they put themselves in those jock houses to make the biggest buck, and hired the “ears”.
 
#51
I feel lucky. I went to a lot of concerts in my late teens and early 20s (I'm 52 now). In those days the sound systems (and music in general) weren't centered around subwoofers and ultra-low bottom end. It was more midrange in those days. I only saw Rush twice, and both times the sound was completely excellent. Very intelligible and clear, unreal punchy-ass bass guitar, and drums that would rattle your eyebones loose. Like there was more power delivered to the audience around the middle-mids. This may have been partially due to the limits of the equipment back then, coupled with musical tastes of the public back then as well. These days modern music seems to be all about ~scoop~.

Not only that, but the price of tickets back then made it less of a risk. If the sound was bad you were only out about $25 bux for you and your girlfriend (er whatever) including parking.

Rushticket-large-1.jpg


I mean, just for kicks, look at the ticket price and the parking price on this stub ($9.00 for the show and $0.35 for parking .. Sammy Hagar opened for them at this show. Super excellent sound at this show too).

Tix-002.jpg


So I feel fortunate that I haven't paid hundreds to see a show with crappy sound. The last big concert I went to was Depeche Mode with a friend who is an 80's pop music freak. That was about six years ago. I guess we got lucky on that one because the sound was exceptional at that one as well.

The next big one I plan on hitting is Coachella ... I live inside of three hours from it, so we're planning on hitting it in 2013.

Really bummed to hear about the sound issues at some of the Clockwork Angels shows. It really is too bad, especially what with ticket prices these days (some promoters and venues are so friggin GREEDY!).
 
#53
I have been to exactly one arena concert that has ever sounded good and that was Prince's Musicology Tour. I wonder if it had something to do with the show being in the round. It is possible because the speakers are then in the center of the room like a larger version of the speakers already in the arena. I know there are probably reinforcement speakers elsewhere but the mains in arenas are usually in the middle. The idea that it is the subs makes sense to me, because when you go to a sports event and they play a song the bass sounds great and you can totally still feel it.

On the topic of sub woofers, I have been "professionally" photographing concerts lately so I have a press pass and I can get right up front. This has been at a couple of mid-size venues so I am right by the subs. By the end of the first song I usually feel like I am about to poop myself there is so much bass energy.
 
#55
Steve Dallman said:
Years ago I saw Willie Nelson, Asleep at the Wheel and Ray Wylie Hubbard at the Brown County Arena in Green Bay. I'd been to other concerts there, and it was usually what you describe...boomy, echo'y, with guitars, bass and vocals muddy and indistinct. But this night, the sound was crisp, clear with every instrument and voice distinct and large. I walked the entire venue, and there wasn't a bad sound in the arena.

The PA was mostly Karlson cabinets...an old design many decades old, and various treble horns along with some smaller mid cabinets. The volume was high, but all was clear and distinct. I remain impressed as the quality of that concert exceeded most of what I've seen since, soundwise.
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One of the best, no, make that THE best sounding/mixed show I've ever heard in my life was the Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, Ray Price show here with Asleep at the Wheel opening. Imagine hearing tone and nuance from an upright bass in a concert venue of a couple thousand people with big PA stacks, subs and all. Pretty much ruined my enjoyment for a lot of other concerts I've seen.:crying:

More props to The Cult. Saw them twice this year, great sound both times. That's what a rock band should sound like.

Granted all those were outdoor shows. I've had so many bad experiences and wasted money going to arena shows I just plain don't go to them anymore. For all the reasons described here, boom, woof, clack, mud, unintelligible vocals, etc. These guys are too of the line pros with million dollar systems and still don't get it right. I don't see how, but it happens all the time.

The other arena show I did see with a good sound was the Crosby, Pills, Hash & Young show from a few years ago. Great sound crew, and their music lends itself to a little cleaner, more "open" mix. Even Neil Youngs harder rocking songs with overdriven guitar, etc. sounded good.

I've come to think it's obvious great sound can be done, most just don't take the time to do it.

Same deal with Aerosmith. Saw them twice. Once outdoors, great sound. Once indoors. Sounded like being inside a giant clothes dryer.

I don't get it. Most of these are top level acts. They have to know they're coming across this way....or do they. I'm sure it sounded good at the mix position, but what about the rest of the venue? I've seen a select few that sound good everywhere.


The running without subs thing might be a good fix for some of this, but, the subs in and of themselves aren't the problem at all. Problem is running them 10 - 20db hotter than everything else and putting way too much bass guitar in them.
 
#56
kikstand454 said:
As I'm not a sound engineer...I'm not exactly sure.
But in stagehanding for 17 years at our terrible sounding civic center, the only shows that were ever amazing sounding were acts where the sound engineers spent as much time as possible with pink noise generators, leveling the room. Loud, obnoxious and time consuming...they're few and far between now~ and the shows suffer because of it.
Also...in general....these tend to be acts with older, wiser crews...and bigger names in general.
I wonder if newer acts tend to be under more cost restraints/ pressure to use more 'modern' time saving technology in todays economic climate, whereas bigger acts make the money either way and are allowed to do what they want.

I have even seen shows where different bands had far superior sound than other acts on the same bill using 'roughly' the same sound equipment. Its all about how much time they want to put into it.

This doesn't at all explain the OP as this is counter to all my observations. Strange indeed.
Click to expand...

very interesting observations. So based on this and some of the subsequent comments it would appear then if some money and effort were made to at least tweak the room you'd lessen the amount of time to get a decent mix and reduce opportunities for crappy ones. Regardless of whether it's for a game or a concert. Of course we're assuming some competence by the sound man....... But the idea is to increase the odds of a better mix.

As an example of "steerable acoustic treatments" Davies Symphony Hall here in SF has a large number of curved acrylic (?) panels suspended from the ceiling. They can change their height above the audience and stage to tailor the acoustics to accomodate a full on 100 piece orchestra to a string quartet to a solo pianist to electric jazz fusion groups.

Probably there's simpler ways to do it in other venues but it can't be anywhere near the cost of those giant Meyer or JBL linear arrays hanging like grape clusters of sonic doom.
 
#57
dhsierra1 said:
very interesting observations. So based on this and some of the subsequent comments it would appear then if some money and effort were made to at least tweak the room you'd lessen the amount of time to get a decent mix and reduce opportunities for crappy ones. Regardless of whether it's for a game or a concert. Of course we're assuming some competence by the sound man....... But the idea is to increase the odds of a better mix.

As an example of "steerable acoustic treatments" Davies Symphony Hall here in SF has a large number of curved acrylic (?) panels suspended from the ceiling. They can change their height above the audience and stage to tailor the acoustics to accomodate a full on 100 piece orchestra to a string quartet to a solo pianist to electric jazz fusion groups.

Probably there's simpler ways to do it in other venues but it can't be anywhere near the cost of those giant Meyer or JBL linear arrays hanging like grape clusters of sonic doom.
Click to expand...

Don't think it'd be economically feasible for venue specific treatments, but with ticket prices nowdays...maybe.:D

Those ceilings have scoreboards and lights and stuff hanging from them. They're structually sound enough to hang some simple deadening panels to take some of the ring out of the big arenas. Just that much would make a pretty good improvement.

The rest of it to me sometimes seems like bad barband mistakes magnified 1000 times. Sounds like "V" eqs on the bass and everything trying to play too loud.

Don't want to come across as too much of a soundguy basher here. There are some very good ones, I've heard their work. Unfortunately, some, just like a kid with a big amp, can also make a sonic mess.
 
#58
will33 said:
Don't think it'd be economically feasible for venue specific treatments, but with ticket prices nowdays...maybe.:D

Those ceilings have scoreboards and lights and stuff hanging from them. They're structually sound enough to hang some simple deadening panels to take some of the ring out of the big arenas. Just that much would make a pretty good improvement.

The rest of it to me sometimes seems like bad barband mistakes magnified 1000 times. Sounds like "V" eqs on the bass and everything trying to play too loud.

Don't want to come across as too much of a soundguy basher here. There are some very good ones, I've heard their work. Unfortunately, some, just like a kid with a big amp, can also make a sonic mess.
Click to expand...

I agree, the venues don't have to go crazy with room treatments like at Davies, diffusion is really key to improving intelligibility and killing echo. Deadeners in corners of the ceiling would go a long way, too. This isn't high tech nor high dollar stuff. A little thought goes a long way into addressing these issues, remember, the old cathedrals in Europe were made w/similarly hard materials as these arenas and the acoustics are stunning. Proportion and diffusion.

I also have to agree that sometimes it is the soundman's fault, or whoever is directing him/her, way too much deep bass in the mix these days for a lot of shows. Like someone posted earlier about the sound aesthetics of the 70s and early 80s, mids really mattered and were catered to for a variety of reasons. That's where so much sonic information lies in music. If you're seeking any semblance of intelligibility, anyway.
 
#60
Saw Zeppelin in a New Orleans arena decades ago(Showco or someone similar). You could hear and feel everything BUT the SPL was at Geezer's level. It worked though.

Saw Rush in Houston in 1989, good seats, semi-expensive for me at the time. Only the drums were clear. Gave up on seeing THEM in a large indoor place especially with prices as they are. I could buy another low-cost bass for what it would cost me and wifey to drive to Houston and see a show now. I watch them at home as-loud but with clarity.

PS: I'm so glad I caught so many GREAT acts for little $$$ at the Warehouse in New Orleans when I was much younger. All wood structure, uneven rooflines and walls, restraint on the FOH, carpeted floor, and competent sound crews. Technology was so primitve compared to now but it was quite nice.
 

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