Double Bass SAD! Ken Smith Fiasco!!!

[Mike Dimin]

I've been a member of TB as long, if not longer than any. I was an "Ask The Pro" on the other side. I also did not read the thread in question. That being said ...

TB has seen Pro's of one sort or another leave TB -and through it all it seems to come down to the same reason - a lack of respect for the expertise that someone who has 20 or 30 years, in the industry, brings to the table. Regardless if you agree or not with the opinions; regardless of whether you personally respect the person or not, there is weight in their opinion. I've seen Jeff Berlin and Dan Glenn leave. I gave up my Ask The Pro forum and have, on numerous occasions, started the process of deleting each and every one of my posts (something that has to be done manually).

As long as the "rule" of TB is that all opinions, regardless of experience or expertise carry equal weight, as long as every slacker, who spends more time on the keyboard then they do with their bass,thinks they can "take down" a Jeff Berlin or a Ken Smith, as long as people can be rude and insulting while hiding behind the anonymity of a screen name, there will be the exodus of this kind of expertise .... and TB becomes, unfortunately, what the industry has come to call "trashbass".

Ken and I have had disagreements, that does not give me license to be rude to him. Inteligent people can agree to disagree. People can choose not to post rather than suffer diarrhea of the mouth.

Mike Dimn

 

[Uncletoad]

my friend Ken Smith. Yes, I said friend!! Sure he's a pain in the ass...most of my best friends are in one way or another!.

Yea. I really like him too. And he's a pretty large size pain in the ass.

So am I.

Ken's complaints are mostly valid and his response to them was past over the top.

I'd be hoping everyone could forgive and forget or live and let live or some epithet so we can get back to the business of discussing stuff that matters.

Like 100 year old bass scrolls.

And the size of Ken's....

 

[Jeremy Allen]

I'm not sure how many times we can say this, but: Ken is welcome back at any time. He's not banned. He wasn't asked to leave, and his threads were not deleted by the board administration. There is no "slack" that can be cut for him to bring him back; there is nothing keeping him away.

If he deserves an apology, that's between him and whoever his specific transgressors are; the latter would not include Paul D. or the moderators involved in this "fiasco," because deleting three of a member's identical posts because they contain foul language and aggressive insults, both violations of the User Agreement, is not a transgression against that member.

I value the contributions of every member on here, including Ken Smith and especially Paul Warburton who, for me, is probably the single greatest resource on TB for my kind of music and is a nice guy to boot. I don't want to see anybody take their ball and go home, and I also don't want to see Ken's leaving turned into some kind of martyrdom/witch-hunt thing that it really isn't. Having seen the care with which he has been treated in the behind-the-scenes stuff by the administrators, I can tell all of you: it just isn't.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

As long as the "rule" of TB is that all opinions, regardless of experience or expertise carry equal weight, as long as every slacker, who spends more time on the keyboard then they do with their bass,thinks they can "take down" a Jeff Berlin or a Ken Smith, as long as people can be rude and insulting while hiding behind the anonymity of a screen name, there will be the exodus of this kind of expertise .... and TB becomes, unfortunately, what the industry has come to call "trashbass".

I know everything is magnified on the BG side of the board (or should I say "amplified?"), but we have a small enough community on the DB side that we can afford to be critical toward everyone's posts. It's not that all opinions, regardless of experience or expertise, carry equal weight; it's that everyone has the right to post, and if we all fill out our profiles and include links to our work then all of the other members can judge if a grain of salt needs to be taken. So if Paul Warburton weighs in on Bill Evans or Red Mitchell, you can be sure my eyes are peeled; and if a high-school kid who just bought "Waltz For Debby" posts, I know what context to put that in. And if LemmyIsGod666 and Arnold Schnitzer both post on the topic of bass restoration, you can bet I'll put more faith in the words of the guy who has actually done the job before many many times. And if I post about the bowability of certain strings or the qualities of a certain bow, people better check me out to know that I'm an amateur when it comes to that side of things and should probably be ignored .

It's the same critical process we should all be doing whenever we read anything or see anything on TV. Many of the more experienced users will choose to ignore the conversations going on between less-experienced users, and vice-versa, which is fine (we can't all sit in front of TB all day). I've found that much of the friction leading to the fiasco being discussed in this thread has come from a very experienced user not choosing to ignore the posts of less-experienced users when that might have been the best thing to do. As admirable as the desire to weigh in with your knowledge on every topic is, it can also be the source of miscommunication.

 

[Mike Dimin]

I'm not sure how many times we can say this, but: Ken is welcome back at any time. He's not banned. He wasn't asked to leave, and his threads were not deleted by the board administration. There is no "slack" that can be cut for him to bring him back; there is nothing keeping him away.

It is not about banning someone, it's about making someone feel welcome - it's about showing someone the respect that they have earned based on expertise and experience (whether you think the deserve it or not).

Mike Dimin

 

[drurb]

One must earn respect for one's knowledge and for how one conducts himself. Ken Smith, nor anyone else, deserves a pass for uncivil, insulting behavior, no matter what his knowledge. Go back and read this.

Sure, many members, including myself, have been involved in discussions here that sometimes became way too heated. IMO, there is a line and Ken went way over it. He showed disdain for the entire TB enterprise. He disparaged it and insulted it. Yes, his contributions were, at times, quite valuable but the price could be high. That price often included unwarranted sniping, mocking, and insulting of members of TB whose only crime was expressing an opinion or argument with which Ken disagreed. So, excuse me if I don't join the "Oh Ken, please come back." crowd. If he would be willing to make amends, I'd welcome his voice back. The ball is in his court. He's hardly the injured party. He decided to pack up and leave. If you're going to dish it out...

Paul W-- I sincerely hope you stick around.

 

[Basshole]

tellin' it like it is is definitely a necessity in here...

It is also, sadly, a bannable offense.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

It is not about banning someone, it's about making someone feel welcome - it's about showing someone the respect that they have earned based on expertise and experience (whether you think the deserve it or not).

Mike Dimin

Naturally. And I'm trying to say (at the bottom of the post quoted) that the administration here has done everything that could be done within reason to make him feel welcome; my point is only that, if Ken still feels unwelcome, there's nothing more that Paul D. et al. can do about it and there is therefore no reason for anyone to demand or expect further action from the administration on this issue. Only the board has the ability to make Ken feel welcome again, and I should think that threads such as this one will go some way towards doing so.

 

[drurb]

...It's not that all opinions, regardless of experience or expertise, carry equal weight; it's that everyone has the right to post, and if we all fill out our profiles and include links to our work then all of the other members can judge if a grain of salt needs to be taken...

Perfect, +1!

 

[Mike Dimin]

Naturally. And I'm trying to say (at the bottom of the post quoted) that the administration here has done everything that could be done within reason to make him feel welcome; my point is only that, if Ken still feels unwelcome, there's nothing more that Paul D. et al. can do about it and there is therefore no reason for anyone to demand or expect further action from the administration on this issue. Only the board has the ability to make Ken feel welcome again, and I should think that threads such as this one will go some way towards doing so.

Please excuse as I was not talking about Paul D. or the Mods, but the users in general. Ken should abide by basic rules of civility as should we all. Yet the anonymous nature of TB and other forums allow for people to state things that they might not otherwise if they had to sign their real name or state it to one's face.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Please excuse as I was not talking about Paul D. or the Mods, but the users in general. Ken should abide by basic rules of civility as should we all. Yet the anonymous nature of TB and other forums allow for people to state things that they might not otherwise if they had to sign their real name or state it to one's face.

I agree completely in principle that anonymity breeds false courage; however, in the situation under discussion here, the parties involved were actually using their full names as their screen names just like you and I.

 

[bribass]

Just wanted to thank the rest of you who are chiming in, and let you know that I recieved a PM from new Moderator Damon.
I told him not to PM me to take shots a Ken. ( which he did. I thought about posting the message, but it was too childish to bother with. )

Well, I sure do miss Ken's posts. They were some of the most informative posts on TBDB. Admit it guys, the Basses (DB) section has been a bit dull w/o him.

It would be a shame to lose another TBDB stalwort like Paul as well.
Can't we all just cool off and bury the hatchet on what went on a few weeks back.

IMHO TBDB is suffering because of these tiffs.

BG

 

[Basshole]

Just wanted to thank the rest of you who are chiming in, and let you know that I recieved a PM from new Moderator Damon.
I told him not to PM me to take shots a Ken. ( which he did. I thought about posting the message, but it was too childish to bother with. )

A MODERATOR? Acting like a CHILD? Attacking a USER?

(mock look of surprise...)

 

[drurb]

A MODERATOR? Acting like a CHILD? Attacking a USER?

(mock look of surprise...)

...and the unpleasant pot is stirred even further.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

...and the pot will continue to brew without any reference whatsoever to facts.

Anybody else want to give the thing a stir? It's free shot day today.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Anybody else want to give the thing a stir? It's free shot day today.

Really? Okay... You, sir, are both a poopy head and a booger brain. And, my dad's bass could beat up your dad's bass with one string tied behind its bout.

 

[Eric Perry]

I can't even believe I'm on "this side"... lol

I'm not a DB person at all, although I do respect and listen to DB stuff fairly frequently. I saw this thread in the "new posts", and have been lurking.

While I don't wish to stir the pot any more, I will say that I have read many a Ken Smith post that slandered others. I remember one in particular where an individual asked about the materials he used for truss rods and reinforcing rods (politely), and Ken's condescension was very, very uncalled for.

Where I don't question his talent, ability, or anything else, he is not of exalted status that is unbridled by TB rules because of who he is.

I could easily go on, regarding some inappropriate posts of his, towards many others, as well as myself, but that won't solve anything.

Again, sorry I crashed the DB party. I'm going to crawl back to the EB side now.

 

[rprowse]

...and the pot will continue to brew without any reference whatsoever to facts.

Anybody else want to give the thing a stir? It's free shot day today.

Hey Damon, down here in NZ we have a thing called Democracy. That gives me a right to vote. It gives everyone else that right too. If I decide to bugger off to Australia (with my ball under arm) life carries on without me. I know my mum will miss me, but everyone else will get over it pretty quick.
My point: These people who, thinking they sit on the right hand of God, leave or threaten to leave should do so. That's surely their right. I'm sure their mums will miss them.

I think you moderators sound like very reasonable people. Thanks for your great work in making this sight available.

 

[Basshole]

I'm going to crawl back to the EB side now.

I'm from the slab abusers side too, and I found this thread in the same way you did, but I felt the need to chime in as well, because I think this thread touches on a matter that concerns us all here - the fact that the professional/pimple-faced-11-year-old ratio continues to degrade, as the cats who really know what's what are being more and more often disrespected (sometimes by those who should well know better), and simply LEAVING.

Hey, maybe it's better for Paul...more young kids to buy the products advertised in the margins...but I think it results in a far less productive environment for professional musicians [read: ADULTS], and degrades the overall credibility of the site.

I also can see this being of greater concern to the DB guys too, as there aren't as many young kids lining up to drive the doghouse.

My personal opinon (if I'm still allowed that luxury) is that perhaps a little less of a child-friendly, and more MUSICIAN FRIENDLY environment might be in order...but that's just my opinion, and hey...I'm just a stupid Basshole.

 

[Bob Branstetter]

While I don't wish to stir the pot any more, I will say that I have read many a Ken Smith post that slandered others. I remember one in particular where an individual asked about the materials he used for truss rods and reinforcing rods (politely), and Ken's condescension was very, very uncalled for.

From the Free Dictionary

slander n. oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed. Slander is a civil wrong (tort) and can be the basis for a lawsuit. Damages (payoff for worth) for slander may be limited to actual (special) damages unless there is malicious intent, since such damages are usually difficult to specify and harder to prove. Some statements such as an untrue accusation of having committed a crime, having a loathsome disease, or being unable to perform one's occupation are treated as slander per se since the harm and malice are obvious, and therefore usually result in general and even punitive damage recovery by the person harmed. Words spoken over the air on television or radio are treated as libel (written defamation) and not slander on the theory that broadcasting reaches a large audience as much if not more than printed publications. (See: defamation, fair comment)