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Scales Necessary?

#81
MikeTB said:
Ok I'll learn scales, but how many are necessary? like should I just learn the major scales?
or should all these [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] cuz sure seems like I could be practicing, that many teh rest of my life ;)
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Learn how to construct scales first. Understanding why they are so is the first step to understanding them and how they can be used.
I teach my students how to construct a C Major scale, they then learn all major scales, keys, triad, arpeggios, chord tones and extentions for all Major uses from that one idea.
I then teach them how to construct a natural minor scale, they then learn all natural minor scales, keys, triads, arpeggios, chord tones and extentions from that....and so on.

They do all this in their own time as homework and because it all flows it all makes sense because they learn about scales rather than remembering things about them.
 
#82
I agree w/ Fergie. Memorizing ALL the scales probably isn't the best way to go. Learn how scales are made and how they relate. Then you can build them as you need them.
With just a few basic tools, you can adapt build almost any melodic structure. You don't need to try to memorize them all right away.
 
#84
SteveC said:
I used to think this..until I had a lesson with Jimmy Haslip. I am now working on my scales and modes...
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Care to expand on this? When I first started learning theory my teacher made me learn through a more scalar and modular based approach. Personally, I found it boring and very difficult to apply in any actual musical situation I found myself in at the time.

I stopped taking lessons and really didn't bother with theory for about two years. I eventually hit a roadblock in my playing and decided to give theory another try, but this time through a chordal approach.

Literally, within one lesson I had so many light bulbs flash inside my head that my skill level instantly jumped quite a few notches.
 
#85
Some of the best advice ever read was from Mike Mushok, lead STAIND guitarist. He said to practice music theory until your sick of it, or till it bores you so bad, for a long time...then just forget it. In other words, not an exact quote, but something to that essence. It all boils down to muscle memory, or getting comfortable with your instrument.
 
#86
HuntYouDown said:
Some of the best advice ever read was from Mike Mushok, lead STAIND guitarist. He said to practice music theory until your sick of it, or till it bores you so bad, for a long time...then just forget it. In other words, not an exact quote, but something to that essence. It all boils down to muscle memory, or getting comfortable with your instrument.
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Mike was a student of Tony MacAlpine's for a while. I would think he has a pretty good grasp on the theory part!
 
#87
HuntYouDown said:
He said to practice music theory until your sick of it, or till it bores you so bad, for a long time...then just forget it. It all boils down to muscle memory, or getting comfortable with your instrument.
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We talked about this as well. Having the mechanics down to the point of where you don't have to think about it, but when you need it, it's there.

I have been working on applying scales/modes and using related notes when soloing - mostly jazz stuff. It's amazing how many things you can play over a D-7 chord and stay in position. D Melodic minor, D minor pentatonic, E dorian, D diminished, and probably more, but I'm starting there.

I was also studying a solo of his and discovered over all the changes that the entire solo fell into a B minor scale. I discover that more and more the more I work on it. Many things I've played in various different ways can easily be played in a major or minor scale pattern.

At least that's how I'd explain it.
 
#88
you also don't want to ignore the pentatonic scales.... frankly, you'd be better suited to learn these, first

you can improvise with them and rarely make a mistake.... once you figure them out, you'll realize why
 
#90
HuntYouDown said:
Some of the best advice ever read was from Mike Mushok, lead STAIND guitarist. He said to practice music theory until your sick of it, or till it bores you so bad, for a long time...then just forget it. In other words, not an exact quote, but something to that essence. It all boils down to muscle memory, or getting comfortable with your instrument.
Click to expand...

Pretty good advice. Know it until you can vomit it. Then let the fingers do the talkin. Then again I love theory and often think at bad rehearsal about different tonal juxtapositions. For example we had a song with the acoustic guitar playing and E minor... I did some things with an E7 that worked well but I knew how much to focus (or not) on the G# and that the wide difference in the range between the instruments would allow it to work. The lead guitarist loved it.
 
#91
Learn major, minor, minor pentatonic and major pentatonic to start. Learn each one in a given key, then apply those patterns to all other keys. Memorize the scale degrees and know which ones are passing tones and chord tones. It's easy and fun. Read a book or get a teacher, or better yet do both.
 
#93
MikeTB said:
Um I live in like the middle of nowhere, i don't think anyone, teaches bass within 100 miles of me:D
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I also live out in the sticks! I found my teacher here on TB. I did a member search, and found one that is about an hour drive from me.

I told him that my goal was to get out there and get my groove on. I want to jam at open mic nights, land a spot in a band (or two), and do some hired gun work.
He teaches "just enough" theory in a no-nonsense way, and applies it to common songs that I play for homework. He teaches things that would be expected of a working bass player. That's because....he's a working bass player :D

You want a teacher that will listen, and help you achieve your goals. Isn't that what it's all about??
 
#95
BassmanSBK said:
Yes, but do you know any writers--great or not--who don't know the alphabet?
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Looking for conformation of such a fact is what holds learning back, how about looking at the number of people with....say dyslexia that cannot use the alphabet but have still had success?

To what degree do you have to know the alphabet?
Do you need to recite it backwards?
Do you need to know every other letter?
Do you need to know what letter only cover the teens?
Do you need to recite every other letter backwards that only appear in the teens?

All the above is over thought out, it is time wasted and nonsense to suggest a writer will be any better for doing it.

Music can be the same, working on ideas that are pointless and meaningless because they seem good or offer some in-sight into a new dawn can be for most a waste of their efforts.

Understanding the ideas and information being presented is the first lesson, then how it can be applied is the second.
Some ideas are taken on a leap of faith, and even though learned some ideas are not fully taken in, they are not questioned or examined to much because that leads away from the original lesson premise.
Staying in the moment of a lesson and idea is where a teacher comes in...it is called focus.
Anyone looking for musical ideas or find scales boring are out of that moment, so it will take them longer to learn to learn what they should be working on, which would be understanding scale construction and playing them.
It is usually the student that come to me and tell me they found this line or that line that sound like this part or that part of a scale. As they continue they find more and more relations to music through the foundations they build.

I had a new student a few months ago, his parents brought him along to the studio, we worked for two hrs on setting him up, getting to know what he expects from lessons, and me telling him what I expect from him.
He took away a lot of homework and sheets with the principals of scale construction,triads,arps., fingerings etc. plus links to info on my web site to work on.
His parents asked what time next week and looked shocked when I said it would be 8-10 weeks before he needs to come back. I explained that bring him back next week and they will pay me to cover the same ground we covered today.
They will pay me to watch him practice, not pay me to teach him.
Once he has the physical skills down to play what I teach him then he may come back sooner and sooner, and maybe even every week if he so desires.
For him the lessons are meaningless until he can physically play what is being taught, all lessons will become to him is frustration, a doubt of his abilities, and ultimately a chore rather than an education....then he loses interest.
I know from talking to him what he expects, so I know he will be back, but I suspect his parents will take him somewhere else where they can pay someone to watch him practice and feel they are getting value for money because he can play songs rather than learn how to create them.

Scales give the physical work out that the fingers need, no note is more that a fret away, you use all fingers to fret them, you need stamina and dexterity to play them, and because you have stamina and dexterity you can hold a tempo without tiring, so your timing is better....because you can move from note to note across strings, your timing is better.
Hesitating or being un-sure what to play next or struggling to play what is next, or get in a position to play what is next will lead to timing issues that no metronome will ever cure.
Never mind the theory benefits of working scales when a student starts, the physical side is what will get them every time.....they just cannot physically play...that is the first barrier they have to get over. When they tire they should then they read a little bit,drink some water a little food, this gives the hands a chance to recover and re-fuel,then they play... rest.....read, then play etc.
Eventually the need for rest diminishes and then they can play, then they are ready to learn and as such they are ready to teach. There is now a foundation to build on and musical ideas to be explored and that takes a life time that lessons can prepare them for.
 
#96
MikeTB said:
Ok I'll learn scales, but how many are necessary? like should I just learn the major scales?
or should all these [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] cuz sure seems like I could be practicing, that many for the rest of my life ;)
Click to expand...

....there's actually only one scale, if you think about it

some people like to intellectualize music and complicate it all, and that's fine.... but it's not necessary

it's like studying math... i mean, you know that if you throw a rock straight up it's going to fall down... but some people want to know why and choose to study it
 
#99
MikeTB said:
What do you mean by construct?
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Try this, get a pen a paper and follow these two simple rules,

1/the intervals for a Major scale are to be T-T-S-T-T-T-S, (T=Tone, S =Semitone) and must be followed at all times.
2/ when completed and conformed, the scale is cut in half, the top half becomes the basis for the new scale and has the next four notes to the sequence added ( we only use the first 7 letters of the alphabet)

So this relates to the notes C D E F G A B C.

C-D is a tone, D-E is a tone, E-F is a semitone, F-G is a Tone, G-A is a Tone, A-B is a Tone, B-C is a Semitone.
So this scale is constructed as T T S T T T S.
As we can see when we get to the G we start again on the A and progress to the C because we only use the first seven notes.
Because the frets on a bass are Semitones, we leave a space to form a tone, these spaces will either be sharps or flats relating to the letter either side of it, when it is related to a scale.

Cut the scale in half and we now have;

G A B C D E F G,
so this is a G scale, but not a G Major scale because the E-F is a semitone and F-G is a tone. F-G ( the 7th note of the scale ) has to be a tone.
Look at every aspect of the intervals and we see that it is that 7th note that can only be altered.
By raising it a semitone by adding a sharp it becomes F#.
Now E-F# is a tone, and F#-G is now a semitone.
So the scale now reads G A B C D E F# G, which is T T S T T T S, so this new scale conforms to a Major scale and can now be called G Major.

Cut the scale in half and we now have
D E F# G A B C D so this is a G scale but not a Major scale....

I will stop here.

Use the previous example to make this scale G Major by altering the intervals to suit using Sharps or Flats, then cut it in half, form a new scale, make that conform. Cut it in half to make a new scale, make that conform etc etc

When you finish you will have seven Major scales, see some pretty simple theory ideas and why they happen.

Once you have this idea down then constructing scales using flats is easy, as are minor, diminished, augmented, wholesome, chromatic etc. and like counting to one million, you know how to do it because you can construct units, tens, hundreds and thousands, but you do not need to actually do it and memorise it to know you can do it.
Constructing scales is easier than remembering them, because more will become apparent as you do it, and how apparent they become depends on how well you understand what you have done.

I will tell you know you will have cycle of 5ths, seven major keys. Seven keys signatures and more important how to order the sharps for those keys signatures and how many you use. You are now one idea away from seven minor scales and keys and one idea away from relative Major and minor ideas....and all this from constructing new scales from two simple rules rather than trying to learn many ideas and remember them.
This is what I mean when I talk about giving students foundations, when later in their education I talk about cycle of 5ths they all ready know it all...they just do not realise it till I tell them they do.....as will you if you do not already know about it.

So to anyone reading this and trying it, have fun and lets know how you got on and what you found.:)
 
#100
MikeTB said:
But by how many scales there are, they have like every set of notes you could play.... so couldn't you just play every thing on you're fret board you can think of and then it would come back as memory when you here any set of notes....:hmm:
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Yes.

You learn an A Major scale. Then you play it in A#. Then B. Then C. Then C#. Then D. Then D#. Then E. Then F. Then G. Then G#. Then A again. All over the fretboard.

Then you do the same thing with minor scales.

If you want to continue past there, you do the same with modes. Starting on Ionian. Dorian. Phrygian. Lydian. Mixolydian. Aeolian. Locrian. Back to Ionian.

If nothing else, scales give order to the madness.

You play this stuff all over the fretboard in every key using every fret, and then eventually, your ear will hear it. It will hear an A. If you train it for a while, eventually you'll hear A major vs. A minor. Sometimes it's easier than that. When I play metal, I can typically hear a diminished, chromatic, or harmonic minor.

It just comes with familiarizing yourself.
 

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