Scales Necessary?

[MikeTB]

Try this, get a pen a paper and follow these two simple rules,

1/the intervals for a Major scale are to be T-T-S-T-T-T-S, (T=Tone, S =Semitone) and must be followed at all times.
2/ when completed and conformed, the scale is cut in half, the top half becomes the basis for the new scale and has the next four notes to the sequence added ( we only use the first 7 letters of the alphabet)

So this relates to the notes C D E F G A B C.

C-D is a tone, D-E is a tone, E-F is a semitone, F-G is a Tone, G-A is a Tone, A-B is a Tone, B-C is a Semitone.
So this scale is constructed as T T S T T T S.
As we can see when we get to the G we start again on the A and progress to the C because we only use the first seven notes.
Because the frets on a bass are Semitones, we leave a space to form a tone, these spaces will either be sharps or flats relating to the letter either side of it, when it is related to a scale.

Cut the scale in half and we now have;

G A B C D E F G,
so this is a G scale, but not a G Major scale because the E-F is a semitone and F-G is a tone. F-G ( the 7th note of the scale ) has to be a tone.
Look at every aspect of the intervals and we see that it is that 7th note that can only be altered.
By raising it a semitone by adding a sharp it becomes F#.
Now E-F# is a tone, and F#-G is now a semitone.
So the scale now reads G A B C D E F# G, which is T T S T T T S, so this new scale conforms to a Major scale and can now be called G Major.

Cut the scale in half and we now have
D E F# G A B C D so this is a G scale but not a Major scale....

I will stop here.

Use the previous example to make this scale G Major by altering the intervals to suit using Sharps or Flats, then cut it in half, form a new scale, make that conform. Cut it in half to make a new scale, make that conform etc etc

When you finish you will have seven Major scales, see some pretty simple theory ideas and why they happen.

Once you have this idea down then constructing scales using flats is easy, as are minor, diminished, augmented, wholesome, chromatic etc. and like counting to one million, you know how to do it because you can construct units, tens, hundreds and thousands, but you do not need to actually do it and memorise it to know you can do it.
Constructing scales is easier than remembering them, because more will become apparent as you do it, and how apparent they become depends on how well you understand what you have done.

I will tell you know you will have cycle of 5ths, seven major keys. Seven keys signatures and more important how to order the sharps for those keys signatures and how many you use. You are now one idea away from seven minor scales and keys and one idea away from relative Major and minor ideas....and all this from constructing new scales from two simple rules rather than trying to learn many ideas and remember them.
This is what I mean when I talk about giving students foundations, when later in their education I talk about cycle of 5ths they all ready know it all...they just do not realise it till I tell them they do.....as will you if you do not already know about it.

So to anyone reading this and trying it, have fun and lets know how you got on and what you found.

Thanks Man!

This Is great! Very mind expanding this will really help! So can i do this for every scale?

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Yes.

You learn an A Major scale. Then you play it in A#. Then B. Then C. Then C#. Then D. Then D#. Then E. Then F. Then G. Then G#. Then A again. All over the fretboard.

Then you do the same thing with minor scales.

If you want to continue past there, you do the same with modes. Starting on Ionian. Dorian. Phrygian. Lydian. Mixolydian. Aeolian. Locrian. Back to Ionian.

If nothing else, scales give order to the madness.

You play this stuff all over the fretboard in every key using every fret, and then eventually, your ear will hear it. It will hear an A. If you train it for a while, eventually you'll hear A major vs. A minor. Sometimes it's easier than that. When I play metal, I can typically hear a diminished, chromatic, or harmonic minor.

It just comes with familiarizing yourself.

You see this is part of the problem looking ahead, for example modes have no use at the start of scale construction, they get in the way, modes just confuse and are at this time pointless and useless, they take away from lessons not add anything worth while to them.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Thanks Man!

This Is great! Very mind expanding this will really help! So can i do this for every scale?

If you do it you will answer your own question and raise a new one,
which I will be happy to answer.

 

[phillybass101]

....there's actually only one scale, if you think about it

some people like to intellectualize music and complicate it all, and that's fine.... but it's not necessary

it's like studying math... i mean, you know that if you throw a rock straight up it's going to fall down... but some people want to know why and choose to study it

That's what I'm taliking about. Music theory ain't nothing but an explanation of what someone else did and someone else thought it sounded good so they analyzed it, studied it and put it on paper. So you spend years learning and memorizing the westernized version of music theory and go abroad to a foreign county (non-european) and guess what your rules don't mean a thing. It's the intellectualizing and making it all mechanical that turns students off. Guys who can really really play don't sit around all day thinking of what musical tricks they can come up via a slide rule and a calculator. They hear something in their head and work it out. It's the spectators who sit on the side and analyze the stuff and write about it. When we are born, we don't know the alphabet, we know nothing about sentences and sentence structure we don't even know english but through experience, trial and error, and imitation we learn to speak and communicate way before we can read or write. The musical learning experience is more natural when it happens in this way too. I know another bassist that can read very well and plays for alot of plays and stage presentations. I invited them to a jam/practice session for a company band/ and picnic where we were learning songs off of the CD. They could not jam or follow chord progressions, or be intutitive in the least. I suggest that we come up with a way to teach and to make the learning process more natural. We'll take a perfectly good student full of love for music and do what, here learn these scales, learn these finger exercises, and at first they are immediately turned off. and not even given a chance to speak. I still to this day can't remember playing a C scale and having it mean anything to me other than I can play it. Scales are for those who want I should say needn to play more melodically using a series of notes back to back (and I'm not talking about walking jazz bass either). In most of the music I play they (other guys in the band) want a bass player, not a lead guitarist, not a guy who can play sax lines on a bass, but a guy who can keep the harmonic balance, groove and tempo going. sometimes that involves playing the root, 5th and octave. You'll learn more and faster by studying chords, progressions, and harmony than learning how be a great soloist as a bassist and rote practicing and memorization of scales. Now does that mean that I am not studying, no, I am actively studying but you'll find me learning more about playing through a chord progression and chordal harmony than knowing that when I'm ascending maybe I can use the relative minor key and when I'm desending I can use a harmonic minor scale. Or is it the other way around. Hey, if I know where the chords are going and what type of chords are being played, I won't have to worry about that kind of memory or that kind of practice so much. I'm not knocking practicing scales, what I'm knocking is a lack of teachers making it mean something and with good reference and with practical application. Oh man I'm forever scarred by evil Music teachers

 

[Stick_Player]

Is the only way, to become very good at bass to study scales?

Yep.

Is It just me or does that sound really boring?!? Any other tips or techniques?

I'd make some other suggestions, but you'd probably become bored.

Or do I have to study bass scales the rest of my life.

Nope. You don't have to do anything. But make sure your hair looks cool.

Thanks Michael

You're welcome.

 

[oniman7]

You see this is part of the problem looking ahead, for example modes have no use at the start of scale construction, they get in the way, modes just confuse and are at this time pointless and useless, they take away from lessons not add anything worth while to them.

I disagree.

For the student who has already learned and applied major and minor, they are a great way to learn the fretboard.

Notice I suggested learning both major and miinor first.

 

[emor]

When we are born, we don't know the alphabet, we know nothing about sentences and sentence structure we don't even know english but through experience, trial and error, and imitation we learn to speak and communicate way before we can read or write.

Your post would be much easier to read if you broke it down into logical paragraphs and indented accordingly.

 

[js1268]

Thanks everyone! I think I'm just over complicating things... right?

yes

...you've given people an opportunity to exercise their egos with what they know....and that's fine, theory is good to know

but there are people out there who will intentionally try to intimidate you with their breadth of knowledge...when in reality, you know just as much as them... you just don't realize it yet...or... you do, but you know it from a different angle

 

[js1268]

That's what I'm taliking about. Music theory ain't nothing but an explanation of what someone else did and someone else thought it sounded good so they analyzed it, studied it and put it on paper. So you spend years learning and memorizing the westernized version of music theory and go abroad to a foreign county (non-european) and guess what your rules don't mean a thing. It's the intellectualizing and making it all mechanical that turns students off. Guys who can really really play don't sit around all day thinking of what musical tricks they can come up via a slide rule and a calculator. They hear something in their head and work it out. It's the spectators who sit on the side and analyze the stuff and write about it. When we are born, we don't know the alphabet, we know nothing about sentences and sentence structure we don't even know english but through experience, trial and error, and imitation we learn to speak and communicate way before we can read or write. The musical learning experience is more natural when it happens in this way too. I know another bassist that can read very well and plays for alot of plays and stage presentations. I invited them to a jam/practice session for a company band/ and picnic where we were learning songs off of the CD. They could not jam or follow chord progressions, or be intutitive in the least. I suggest that we come up with a way to teach and to make the learning process more natural. We'll take a perfectly good student full of love for music and do what, here learn these scales, learn these finger exercises, and at first they are immediately turned off. and not even given a chance to speak. I still to this day can't remember playing a C scale and having it mean anything to me other than I can play it. Scales are for those who want I should say needn to play more melodically using a series of notes back to back (and I'm not talking about walking jazz bass either). In most of the music I play they (other guys in the band) want a bass player, not a lead guitarist, not a guy who can play sax lines on a bass, but a guy who can keep the harmonic balance, groove and tempo going. sometimes that involves playing the root, 5th and octave. You'll learn more and faster by studying chords, progressions, and harmony than learning how be a great soloist as a bassist and rote practicing and memorization of scales. Now does that mean that I am not studying, no, I am actively studying but you'll find me learning more about playing through a chord progression and chordal harmony than knowing that when I'm ascending maybe I can use the relative minor key and when I'm desending I can use a harmonic minor scale. Or is it the other way around. Hey, if I know where the chords are going and what type of chords are being played, I won't have to worry about that kind of memory or that kind of practice so much. I'm not knocking practicing scales, what I'm knocking is a lack of teachers making it mean something and with good reference and with practical application. Oh man I'm forever scarred by evil Music teachers

^^^ what he said ^^^

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I disagree.

For the student who has already learned and applied major and minor, they are a great way to learn the fretboard.

Notice I suggested learning both major and miinor first.

Learning the fretboard is a simple task, any reasonable student that applies simple logic to it will learn it in a few hours, without having it confused by modes. I would say any student that has already learned Major scales correctly, never mind minor, already knows the fretboard?

The point is that any student cannot help but learn Major and Minor ideas from studying scales correctly, that is the point.
Scale construction is a few hours of a students time, that's all it takes to get the idea down, then after that its a lifetime to reference them and expand on them.
The example i posted earlier is the sort of thing kids with no musical background at all work out on paper and solve.
They see it as a puzzle, which they solve in no time at all because they follow the rules.
Part of the reason they do it so quick is because they only see it as a puzzle, there is no distraction.
It is the simple formula they see and learn, no applications to confuse the issue.

Again it comes from having a solid foundation and what you learn being controlled by the teacher.

For example if you know what mode a Cmajor scale is then every thing you learn about Major scales will have inversions that construct new modes. Now that is construct new modes, not how to use them or apply them.
The fact that we are on scales means we may have not yet touched on trads or arpeggios, that can be seen as harmonic use of certain scale notes, so the idea that modes and how they can effect harmonic structure is just a waste of time. Modes cannot be fully dealt with till harmony and melody are understood, and in scale construction we are no where near that.

The idea that you can, is compareable to reading a child the story of the 3 little pigs, then stopping to explain in minute detail the points of construction of each house so the child knows why the first two failed but the third one did not. The child does not need to know anything other than the story to understand what is going on and maybe get the point of the story..... let alone question why a pig would live in a house or even how a pig could hold the materials to build such houses when they have no fingers to hold, why does a wolf what to eat the pigs, why... well kids can drive you crazy because they question everything, but accept any answer giving as a fact.

I fully accept your point but the one i am making is "time and place". Get a basic foundation to build on and support what you will learn rather than back tracking all the time coming at ideas and concepts from the wrong place.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

That's what I'm taliking about. Music theory ain't nothing but an explanation of what someone else did and someone else thought it sounded good so they analyzed it, studied it and put it on paper. So you spend years learning and memorizing the westernized version of music theory and go abroad to a foreign county (non-european) and guess what your rules don't mean a thing. It's the intellectualizing and making it all mechanical that turns students off. Guys who can really really play don't sit around all day thinking of what musical tricks they can come up via a slide rule and a calculator. They hear something in their head and work it out. It's the spectators who sit on the side and analyze the stuff and write about it. When we are born, we don't know the alphabet, we know nothing about sentences and sentence structure we don't even know english but through experience, trial and error, and imitation we learn to speak and communicate way before we can read or write. The musical learning experience is more natural when it happens in this way too. I know another bassist that can read very well and plays for alot of plays and stage presentations. I invited them to a jam/practice session for a company band/ and picnic where we were learning songs off of the CD. They could not jam or follow chord progressions, or be intutitive in the least. I suggest that we come up with a way to teach and to make the learning process more natural. We'll take a perfectly good student full of love for music and do what, here learn these scales, learn these finger exercises, and at first they are immediately turned off. and not even given a chance to speak. I still to this day can't remember playing a C scale and having it mean anything to me other than I can play it. Scales are for those who want I should say needn to play more melodically using a series of notes back to back (and I'm not talking about walking jazz bass either). In most of the music I play they (other guys in the band) want a bass player, not a lead guitarist, not a guy who can play sax lines on a bass, but a guy who can keep the harmonic balance, groove and tempo going. sometimes that involves playing the root, 5th and octave. You'll learn more and faster by studying chords, progressions, and harmony than learning how be a great soloist as a bassist and rote practicing and memorization of scales. Now does that mean that I am not studying, no, I am actively studying but you'll find me learning more about playing through a chord progression and chordal harmony than knowing that when I'm ascending maybe I can use the relative minor key and when I'm desending I can use a harmonic minor scale. Or is it the other way around. Hey, if I know where the chords are going and what type of chords are being played, I won't have to worry about that kind of memory or that kind of practice so much. I'm not knocking practicing scales, what I'm knocking is a lack of teachers making it mean something and with good reference and with practical application. Oh man I'm forever scarred by evil Music teachers

It is all cool and all to learn how what you said work ... now that you learned that and that it makes sense ... now expend you vocabulary, you don't want to speak like a 6 years old kid for the rest of your life. This is where learning from paper can expend what you know.

I know people that could play better than me but they only play what they know, they never expend anywhere, they just pick something in their same old bag of tricks because it works. They don,t pick up new tricks because no one speak a more advance language than them, if they don't hear it first they can replicate it. Me ? I learned stuff that no one use and I think it just expend what I can do and it expend my bag of tricks.

 

[MikeTB]

If you do it you will answer your own question and raise a new one,
which I will be happy to answer.

Ok so what Tone and Semitone patterns do I use, for scales like pentatonic and minor?

None of your advice will be lost I'm putting it in Textedit

I'm really enjoying this thank you so much!
never thought i would enjoy scales like this!

 

[simmerdown]

get this

http://scaletool.com

i do scales for 10-15 mins to warm up...it becomes 'fun'

learn intervals, and interval training...best way imo to pick up other peoples lines

youtube for pentatonic workouts, theres some good, full-neck excecises up there

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Ok so what Tone and Semitone patterns do I use, for scales like pentatonic and minor?

None of your advice will be lost I'm putting it in Textedit

I'm really enjoying this thank you so much!
never thought i would enjoy scales like this!

Minor : TSTTSTT

Tone and semi tone pattern is harder because you skip some note ... so here are the degree
Minor Pentatonic : 1, b3, 4, 5, b7
Major Pentatonic : 1, 2, 3, 5, 6

 

[Groove Master]

Is the only way, to become very good at bass to study scales? Is It just me or does that sound really boring?!? Any other tips or techniques?
Or do I have to study bass scales the rest of my life.

Thanks Michael

Hello Michael,

I haven't read the whole replies but I will eventually for my own understanding of the kind of people that tell you not to study them (??). If you want to play bass AND music even as a hobby or in a more serious setting, learning scales is a MUST because they are the foundation of all the music you listen to or play. These are the tools used in music just like the wrenches, hammers, screwdrivers, nails, scalpels, knives, pliers etc you'll find in any toolkits of all kind. If you call an electrician to repair or fix something at your house, you expect this professional to know the names of its tools and when,how and why he uses them for any particular actions he/she has to perform to do its job. Scales AND music theory are the same. Of course you can get by to a certain degree without knowledge but it is much more efficient if you know what you are doing and what are your options. Bass is a very important factor in the overall sound of music because it is the foundation of the harmony which means that everything that is playing on top of it has to fit or complement it in a musical and organized way. Just like any handyman will use the right tools for the right job, the bass player will benefit from learning scales and arpeggios in any harmonic context you'll play in.

The main problem with this debate,(that shouldn't be one in my opinion) is the lack of knowledge about harmony and music theory and practical examples because yes, learning scales without knowing how to practice them and how to use them could be boring and useless just like a plumber that doesn't know how to use the tools in its toolbox. Would you hire this guy or have confidence in someone that know what he/she is doing? Every song we play has an harmonic structure and a tonality or key center and knowing that stuff is an important asset for any bass player and musician.

Anyway I hope you do understand my points which may have been mentioned already but it is worth saying that SCALES ARE NECESSARY and most important learn them in practical way,

My advice would be to get a teacher that focus his/her teaching on theory and how to apply it.
Learning music is a lifetime project and practicing scales and arpeggios are still part of my routine in a regular basis as a technical level for control,speed, fingerings,tone, creativity etc...

BTW ask any classical musicians if they still practice scales and stuff. These guys and girls are very highly trained and they do practice every day theirs scales and arpeggios for warm-ups.

Hope this helps,

GM

 

[MikeTB]

Hello Michael,

I haven't read the whole replies but I will eventually for my own understanding of the kind of people that tell you not to study them (??). If you want to play bass AND music even as a hobby or in a more serious setting, learning scales is a MUST because they are the foundation of all the music you listen to or play. These are the tools used in music just like the wrenches, hammers, screwdrivers, nails, scalpels, knives, pliers etc you'll find in any toolkits of all kind. If you call an electrician to repair or fix something at your house, you expect this professional to know the names of its tools and when,how and why he uses them for any particular actions he/she has to perform to do its job. Scales AND music theory are the same. Of course you can get by to a certain degree without knowledge but it is much more efficient if you know what you are doing and what are your options. Bass is a very important factor in the overall sound of music because it is the foundation of the harmony which means that everything that is playing on top of it has to fit or complement it in a musical and organized way. Just like any handyman will use the right tools for the right job, the bass player will benefit from learning scales and arpeggios in any harmonic context you'll play in.

The main problem with this debate,(that shouldn't be one in my opinion) is the lack of knowledge about harmony and music theory and practical examples because yes, learning scales without knowing how to practice them and how to use them could be boring and useless just like a plumber that doesn't know how to use the tools in its toolbox. Would you hire this guy or have confidence in someone that know what he/she is doing? Every song we play has an harmonic structure and a tonality or key center and knowing that stuff is an important asset for any bass player and musician.

Anyway I hope you do understand my points which may have been mentioned already but it is worth saying that SCALES ARE NECESSARY and most important learn them in practical way,

My advice would be to get a teacher that focus his/her teaching on theory and how to apply it.
Learning music is a lifetime project and practicing scales and arpeggios are still part of my routine in a regular basis as a technical level for control,speed, fingerings,tone, creativity etc...

BTW ask any classical musicians if they still practice scales and stuff. These guys and girls are very highly trained and they do practice every day theirs scales and arpeggios for warm-ups.

Hope this helps,

GM

Thank you for your thoughts.

Yea I knew scales where important, basically I was kinda wanting to know more about them and how to practice them, I think i got (more or less) the general idea of that but all advice is appreciated

 

[MikeTB]

get this

http://scaletool.com

i do scales for 10-15 mins to warm up...it becomes 'fun'

learn intervals, and interval training...best way imo to pick up other peoples lines

youtube for pentatonic workouts, theres some good, full-neck excecises up there

Sorry got a Apple program don't work on Apple

 

[MikeTB]

Minor : TSTTSTT

Tone and semi tone pattern is harder because you skip some note ... so here are the degree
Minor Pentatonic : 1, b3, 4, 5, b7
Major Pentatonic : 1, 2, 3, 5, 6

Thanks! How do you use the degree?

Mike

 

[carl h.]

Um I live in like the middle of nowhere, i don't think anyone, teaches bass within 100 miles of me

Fill out your profile more than sex:male and you might get help.

 

[groooooove]

Is the only way, to become very good at bass to study scales? Is It just me or does that sound really boring?!? Any other tips or techniques?
Or do I have to study bass scales the rest of my life.

Thanks Michael

i'm going to ignore every post but this OP.. cause i dont feel like reading all of it at this hour..

no, you can be a perfectly fine bassist and never learn scales.

but you can never become a musician without knowing scales.

is it boring? well, a scale in itself.. perhaps can seem boring. the alphabet is boring, but everything from the first words of a toddler to every great piece of poetry, are all made up of patterns drawn from that same alphabet.