Double Bass Scott LaFaro's Strings

[jonas]

Forum member Paul Warburton recently has provided some informations about the string brands used in the 1950ies/early 60ies:
"When I started playing in about 1956, the Artone gut strings were almost everybody's choice for the G and D. The A and E were almost always steel Lycons. This was mainly a jazz genre choice. The Red-O-Ray gut strings were, I think, next in popularity, in jazz anyway. They were odd looking strings in that they were gut strings dyed to a red color! (There's a Gerry Mulligan album that has a photo of the band laying down on the floor and the shot from above, shows Bill Crow's bass with those Reds on it.)
I lived in Aspen Colorado in the mid 1960s and Gary Karr, John Deak and many other future great bassists who were there studying with Stuart Sankey were all using Eudoxa both in orchestra tuning and solo tuning.
The Lycon steel strings became most popular as the first steel strings in the late 50s. early 60s. The great jazz bassist Red Mitchell, to my knowledge was the first bassist to switch to all steel Lycons. Ray Brown had a business deal with Lycon, endorsing his own personal version of Lycon. They were not as heavy as the regular ones in terms of tension, and a bit easier to play. They came packaged in a nice plastic envelope with an autographed picture of Ray in the clear plastic window! These strings were kind of a Thomastik kind of high tension string that were fabulous for pizz sustain, but pretty awful for bowing. They suddenly went out of business and disappeared from the market. At this time, Thomastik became the state of the art jazz pizz string."

 

[AMJBASS]

Thanks for posting that. It is interesting. I would really like to come across an old set of Red-O-Rays just to see how they were like. I don't suppose I will find any though.....

 

[klepto]

Does anyone know what strings Scott LaFaro used?

the following is cut and pasted verbatim from an email i received from Barrie Kolstein regarding Instrument B1287 -- Scott LaFaro's Prescott
the instrument can be seen at [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

my original question
I wonder if you have any information on how the bass was originally set-up: strings, string height, any special set-up of the finger board, etc?


Barrie's Reply
Scotty was a very strong part of all bassists lives. He was and is a legacy that lives on and inspires us all. My father did the original restoration for Scotty on the Prescott and it was setup with an extremely low action with gut strings (Kaplan E and A strings and Red-O-Ray G and D strings).

 

[Alexi David]

I've learned recently that kaplan made both the red o rays and the golden spirals, and that golden spirals were also available in just plain gut. It seems like most of the times we mention golden spirals we mean with the tynex wrap

 

[Adrian Cho]

Thanks for posting that. It is interesting. I would really like to come across an old set of Red-O-Rays just to see how they were like. I don't suppose I will find any though.....

There were some (may still be there) on eBay recently. I thought about getting them. In my opinion so far, the Gamut guts made by Dan Larson are by far the best gut strings. I haven't tried Dluglolecki's strings however but Damian told me he does not varnish his strings and I prefer varnished strings for maintenance and better arco response and sound.

Dan's strings are very clear and have a vastly superior tone and he has lots of options for the type of string (Pistoy, Lyon, etc.), gauge, etc. The Chorda G is nice but I found the rest of the set quite useless.

As for why some people would use steel strings on the bottom and gut on the top (I am doing this) - there are lots of reasons to do so. It gives you two strings with stable tuning. It gives you more definition on the bottom. Cost is lower. The overall sound is gut but with a modern feel to it. I love the old thumpy gut sound of Mingus and the old swing bassists but I couldn't play with that all the time for some of the more modern things I do and I find if I really want that sound then I can partially recreate it in my hands anyway. What I get from my setup is gut attack and gut tone but modern sustain.

 

[Don Higdon]

If I may...
JAS, if you want to know what kind of strings LaFaro used for academic or historic interest, fine. That knowlege will not enable you to replicate his sound, because you're not going to ever hear it. You're going to hear how it was recorded, which is altogether different from how he sounded in person. Ike Harris had it right in his post:
"I recall a friend in town telling me he saw the trio with Scott playing in NY. Said he was very soft. I don't know whether he used a mic or not, but a low action with small gauge guts and no mic would be a recipe for soft volume, Prescott or not. It DID record very well however."
That was also my experience listening to him with Evans at Birdland. The big discussion among bassists at the time was whether it was worth giving up that much audibility for the sake of speed and facility. This was prior to the advent of amps and steel strings, which changed the rules for everybody.
As for Golden Spirals -
The D and G that I used in the 60's were round-wound nylon.
A very common setup was Golden Spiral D and G and wound gut E and A, made in Long Island, an Italian name that I have forgotten. This was Ron Carter's setup when I sat in on his bass. I don't remember the year, but Tony Williams was on drums, and they were just back from a tour with Miles.
So now you can see that Paul Wallbutton is not the oldest guy at TalkBass. Neither is he the best looking, although he's in the top......uh.......oh, never mind.

 

[Ike Harris]

If I may...
JAS, if you want to know what kind of strings LaFaro used for academic or historic interest, fine. That knowlege will not enable you to replicate his sound, because you're not going to ever hear it. You're going to hear how it was recorded, which is altogether different from how he sounded in person. .

I recently found another testament to Scott's sound on the website dedicated to the great bassist:

Hentoff, Nat. [Interview with Cecil Taylor] Down Beat (February 25, 1965). Reprinted as program notes for the recording, Nefertiti: The Beautiful One Has Come, New York: Arista Freedom [Records], 1975. Arista AL-1905. 2 sound discs : stereo, 33 1/3 rpm ; 12 in. Recorded November 23, 1962 at the Cafe Montmartre, Copenhagen, Denmark.

“Recording [says Taylor] gives [Bill] Evans's piano a scope of highs and lows that his original touch cannot achieve. This is particularly clear with bass players. Take the late Scott LaFaro. He was thought to have a fantastic technique, but my definition of technique is not only the ability to play fast but the ability to be heard. To have a fat sound. LaFaro, however, had a minute sound. By contrast, Charlie Haden really had something going. But engineers made LaFaro sound big.”

I also want to say to Paul that he reminded me of the first set of new strings I ever bought which were the Ray Brown Lycons. They made my 1st upright sound and play at it's best(new Juzek ply).

Ike

 

[Don Higdon]

Jason:
Guitarist Lenny Argese (a friend of our teacher Michael Moore) is a friend from way back. He called me one night, said "Get over here now!" to a joint in Hoboken. This was before Hoboken was discovered by the yuppies. It was a last minute gig. Someone suggested to Lenny that he call Ron Carter, who took the job and brought Tony Williams. We had a long chat on the break about basses and strings. I had never seen Golden Spirals. Ron had no problem with me trying his bass, and then asked if I wanted to sit in. So I did. I also remember him telling me of his dissatisfaction with the Prescott bass, finding it slow to respond.

 

[Paul Warburton]

So now you can see that Paul Wallbutton is not the oldest guy at TalkBass. Neither is he the best looking, although he's in the top......uh.......oh, never mind.

Finally, a thread with the old guys!
Dono, we haven't talked in a long time, same goes for Ike. When you mentioned sitting in on Rons bass, it reminded me of the time in Denver, when I had the opposite experience.
Ron was in town for a concert with some heavies and they all came into a club where I was working with Harold Land and Blue Mitchell.
I wasn't a big Ron Carter fan at the time...one reason, I remember, was that it was the mid 1980's, and all the recording engineers were trying to make bass players get that direct to the board sound like Ron. It really was one reason I just didn't get too excited about recording.
Ron's a great player, so don't get me wrong. It wasn't about his playing, just the fact that that sound became the state of the art in the recording industry for years.
Anyway, back to the story that gave me new respect for Ron. Of course, I asked him to play. I apologized about the five strings and the weird shoulders on my Bohmann, thinking he would pass on the offer. Not only did he play, but made no mention of the fiver and the fact that my bass did have some strange qualities to deal with. He played the **** out of it, including the low B. All he had to say was...." That's a big one "
That impressed the hell outta me.
And Ike, I agree with you 100% on the Lycons, although, I preferred the regular, blue thread ends.
You younger cats....Lycon strings had so much sustain, that at times it was almost too much and talk about a low end growl? Ouch! I was really brought down when they went off the market. And, like Thomastiks, they were just awful with the bow.

 

[Paul Warburton]

“Recording [says Taylor] gives [Bill] Evans's piano a scope of highs and lows that his original touch cannot achieve. This is particularly clear with bass players. Take the late Scott LaFaro. He was thought to have a fantastic technique, but my definition of technique is not only the ability to play fast but the ability to be heard. To have a fat sound. LaFaro, however, had a minute sound. By contrast, Charlie Haden really had something going. But engineers made LaFaro sound big.”

I'd like to say that i'm not interested in anything that Cecil Taylor has to say about anything musical..... particularly about Bill Evans and Scott LaFaro. Scott wasn't the loudest bass player in the world, but to call his sound 'minute' is outrageous. I heard Scott live with Chet Baker, Phil Urso, Bobby timmons and Lawrence Marable on drums. Believe me when I say that his sound was not "minute"
Taylors first paragraph about Bills touch is also absurd. Bill was known , particularly by other pianists, including major classical piano virtuosi, for his magnificent touch. You can also be assured by someone who worked with Bill and one of the heaviest drummers around, Philly Joe Jones, that Bill was no shrinking violet in the sound department!

 

[Don Higdon]

You can also be assured by someone who worked with Bill and one of the heaviest drummers around, Philly Joe Jones,

Wallbutton: Did you replace Michael Moore?

 

[Paul Warburton]

Wallbutton: Did you replace Michael Moore?

No Dono, after Chuck Israels and Larry Bunker in San Francisco at the Jazz Workshop. Bill and his wife at the time, Elaine had some personal problems and Chuck and Larry split.
This was in 1964. Bill called me during a gig I was doing in Colorado Springs. He said "This is Bill Evans" I said " Right, and i'm Jesus, the Lord" and he finally put Elaine on and she tried to assure me. It turned out that he was calling me just on the recommendation of the great lady pianist Pat Moran, who Scott did his first record with in L.A. I had worked with her in Denver earlier.
He finally said: " If I send you a ticket for you and another for your bass will you come?" Of course I said yes and did. Crazy Huh?
I posted a picture of Bill, Joe and I on TBDB somewhere. I'll see if I can find it and re-do it. I don't wanna take it out of it's frame again.

 

[christ andronis]

Paul...which albums (Bill Evans) are you on? I've got most of them, but it seems like every month a new "lost" album comes out.
Just wondering. thanks

 

[Paul Warburton]

Paul...which albums (Bill Evans) are you on? I've got most of them, but it seems like every month a new "lost" album comes out.
Just wondering. thanks

Unfortunately, I didn't record with Bill. I, of course, wish I had.
One night Conrad Mendenhouse, of 'Comrade Conrad' fame came in and did a movie of the trio. I've heard that it has been out there, but i've never seen it.
I don't know if i'd want to hear it or see it. It's a strange and wonderful thing to have done that gig....It was such a deep experience, but not having had the chance to record, it's kinda bitter/sweet.

 

[christ andronis]

It's a strange and wonderful thing to have done that gig....It was such a deep experience, but not having had the chance to record, it's kinda bitter/sweet.

No doubt....he was one of the first guys who started swinging me around to listening to more jazz, having been a Beatle baby. Your experience is the envy of alot of guys on this board, myself included. Talk about going to school!! Ya think he learned from you too?

 

[Paul Warburton]

No doubt....he was one of the first guys who started swinging me around to listening to more jazz, having been a Beatle baby. Your experience is the envy of alot of guys on this board, myself included. Talk about going to school!! Ya think he learned form you too?

Of course not!
But one night, and I swear this is true...he said: "Yeah, Paul"

 

[christ andronis]

Of course not!
But one night, and I swear this is true...he said: "Yeah, Paul"

well don't say that....you were playing with him and he gave you his affirmation that he liked what you were doing. Geez, I'd of had a woodie for a week..

 

[Jeremy Allen]

Dang, Paul, I'd give my left nut to have played with that trio. (And my other one to play with Miles' mid-sixties quintet, and then my wife would kick me out and I would have nothing to do but practice all the time.)

What tunes did you guys play? Was it some of the same material Bill did on, say, that first "Live at Montreaux" album (I think that was the same year?)?

PS Cecil Taylor disparaging Bill Evans' touch...right. Taylor was also rather famously quoted early on in Evans' career bemoaning the fact that Bill Evans is what people take for "good jazz piano" and what a travesty he thought that was.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

Oh yeah, the other thing: Barrie Kolstein's little story about when LaFaro first came into the shop with his Prescott mentions that Sam (Kolstein the Older) was astonished at the sounds he heard coming from the other room when Scott was playing. Now that doesn't mean he had a huge sound, but I doubt Sam would've dropped his chisel and run in there had the sound been "minute."

 

[Paul Warburton]

I feel like i'm pirating this thread.
We did most of the tunes off the "Moonbeams" album, and Bills tunes: REerson I Knew, Turn Out the Stars, Polka Dots and Moonbeams, Elsa, Debbie, How My Heart Sings and we'd just call tunes we felt like playing.
And yeah,I had a 'Woodie' for six weeks.